How long do we think digital Leica M cameras will last?

[Coldkennels]

As for your iPod, did you know that people are upgrading old iPods with huge solid state drives and non-Apple OS? It's pretty awesome.

This is basically what I'm thinking. The battery and hard drive both need replacing, and the case is notoriously difficult to open (I did it once on an iPod that later became totally unrepairable), so I'm weighing up the options. For instance, I could upgrade it to use Bluetooth headphones and run off a regular SD card in the process. That's one pretty great thing about owning items - digital or otherwise - that develop cult status: aftermarket mods down the line open up new options long after official support is long-gone. Maybe the same will happen with the M9, M240, and so on... who knows.

A 1970's record player is a belt, a platter and an electric motor. Come on, comparing that to the intricacies of a CD player?

That is precisely my point that you apparently totally missed; "fewer moving parts means fewer broken pieces". I'm all for the right to repair but as things get more and more complex it becomes more and more infeasible. At some point, we have to ask if the trade-off is worth it.

Look at camera lenses; I know how much you love your Amotal and your Sonnars. They're basic glass-and-metal constructions, easy to repair, easy to modify, easy to calibrate, easy to adapt to new systems. Providing you don't drop and smash them, they'll be useable for the next hundred years (and even if they are smashed, someone might step up and make a whole new element for them). On the other hand, I doubt the first Fuji X lens I bought, a focus-by-wire aperture-control-by-electronics-only 27mm f/2.8, will still be usable in even 20 years' time. Sure, by most people's standards it's more "convenient" to use than your Amotal, but I don't think it's optically better in any way. We've traded longevity and ease of repair for short-term "convenience" and low price. Ten years ago, I thought that was just the cost of "progress". Now I'm not so sure.

The M9 is a good camera. [...] It's fine that you do not like them.

I never said I don't like the M9. I've never owned one because the cost/benefit analysis didn't line up for me, but I wouldn't say the M9 was a "bad" camera. I save that title for the Pixii. 😉

 

[Coldkennels]

Oh, and on the note of camera service: my "other half" picked up her Olympus OM-D E-M5 III to go birding a few months ago... and the battery dropped out. Turns out the lever which holds the battery door closed is made of brittle plastic and had given up the ghost. No worries, I've got suitable glues, so I put the two parts back together and screwed it back into place, and it just shattered into even more pieces.

I contacted OM Systems to ask if I could get the part to sort it out and they basically just said "nope". Incredibly unhelpful.

I searched around and found this is a really common problem on the OM-Ds. Really common. Forum posts directed me to Luton Cameras, whose page now has these two notifications:



Luckily someone has made a 3D printable replacement part over on Thingiverse. I sent the file to a friend of a friend at 2am, and he handed the printed part to me at the pub fifteen hours later. Camera repaired, no thanks to OM Systems.

 

[splitimageview]

There is always duct tape. 😂

 

[raydm6]

WD-40, vice grips, and some duct tape is all you need 🙂

“Take these three items right here. You can have this. WD-40, vise grips, and some duct tape. Any man worth his salt can do half the household chores with just those three things.” -Walt Kowalski

The Walt Kowalski Toolbox

WD-40, vise grips, and some duct tape. Any man worth his salt can do half the household chores with just those three things.

www.artofmanliness.com

 

[Bill Blackwell]

Yes, and that is the problem. If you get lucky with a dealer you will get lucky with service. It is not a level playing field. That's not good customer service when only a distinct minority get good service. That is favoritism. Not uncommon but when it affects the whole company it is a problem. "Will I be in the favored customer lottery or out in the cold?"

You think it is just great because you are one of the favorites. But what if you were in East Jesus, Ohio, with no access to a favored dealer? What then? I don't want this to degenerate into a discussion of ethics. I just think it would be nice if everybody were treated the same and got good service.

PopFlash is an internet only dealer. Everyone has the same access I have.

 

[Ko.Fe.]

This is the crux of the issue. Mechanical film cameras are reverse-engineerable, and replacement parts can be made relatively simply. With the example you gave - the plastic surround of the VF/RF - there are replacement parts easily available right now. I bought one just a month or two ago to replace the 70 year old frame that finally cracked on my IIIf this year. Other internal parts that fail - ribbons, shutter blinds, even gears and cogs - can all be manufactured by people who know the specs if they have the right tools.

Even with optical components like those eyepiece lenses: if there's demand, they can be manufactured. Someone in Japan is making replacement elements for haze-etched elements in one of the Canon LTM lenses.

But digital cameras? Replacements for key components are much harder to manufacture. Look at the M9: the second companies stopped making the CCD sensor unit, Leica could no longer replace the failed units, and no one is realistically going to be able to DIY replacement sensors down the line. It's just too specialised, the manufacturing too complex.

Demand for lost lenses is so miniscule, it will be no replacement.

I'm not aware of any third party mechanical pats for Leicas.

Because of it, ELC parts stock from Bodo was purchased by DAG.

I'm aware of Sony A7 sensors been implanted to film M.
Same could be done with digital M.

It will be more and more film cameras converted to digital.
Young generation has no time, income and place for darkrooming.
Many wear film cameras as attire. Most could afford very few films.

 

[Ko.Fe.]

I must tell our Nikon D90 this. Made in 2009, bought new, goes on shooting and making surprisingly good images for an antique. Like it's owner, but let' not go there...

Ditto my Lumix GF1, gifted to me a few years ago, with two lenses and by far the worst EVF I've ever had the misery of using. But it goes on producing images that amaze me, for its size and small pixel-brain.

In 2009 new D90 was 100 cad more than open box 500D. We went with open box. To replace EOS300. Film became no sense for family pictures. I have around 100k exposures on it over years.
Good luck to have this many with film Leica.

 

[boojum]

That is precisely my point that you apparently totally missed; "fewer moving parts means fewer broken pieces". I'm all for the right to repair but as things get more and more complex it becomes more and more infeasible. At some point, we have to ask if the trade-off is worth it.

If manufacturers could deliver a product with fewer parts delivering the same benefits they would. The Model "A" was a great car. I think one would be fun but for easy, comfortable A to B I will choose my 2001 Honda Insight, computerized to the gills with a complex hybrid ICE-electric system. It's a better car. True, they both carry me from A to B. The Insight does it better in greater comfort with great economy. It has been refined.

I have that lovely former shelf queen Contax II. In the time it takes for me to get that out, read the light meter, set the shutter and f-stop I could have ripped off dozens of pics with a moderns digital. So if a slow and difficult to use camera that is at least theoretically repairable pleases you more than one which just works, that's your choice to make. I like them all, but for git 'er done, I am going modern automatic because the ROI is way higher.

And the argument that the modern efficient cameras will encourage lots of photos, somewhat of a spray and pray. Maybe. But that will give me many to choose from whereas with film I am stingy and if I am lucky enough to click when it "happens" I will hopefully also have it exposed right. So for ease of use I will opt for the electronic and computer assisted cameras. I am amateur but to use an analogy, the digital is my "work choice" and the analog my "play choice."

 

[boojum]

PopFlash is an internet only dealer. Everyone has the same access I have.

Fine, but at this dealer. Maybe the folks I bought my Leica from do not have the same pull. I am aware that anyone can patronize a dealer. My point is that the playing field is not level because it require this one dealer. Why should not all Leica dealers offer the same service? Why must I patronize a special dealer?

And to be honest, your anecdotal experience with this guy is not a real survey of service. I am not trying to be snarky or impertinent. I am just pointing out that any survey with a small number of samples is notoriously inaccurate. OTOH the general experience with Leica service is that it is slow, awful and expensive. Granted this is not a true survey either, but there is a heap of anecdotal evidence there. Enough to make me plenty wary.

FWIW this after-sale callousness by Leica is part of why I decided on a different brand when the M-11 came out. It had teething problems and Leica was not really aggressive in shooting the bugs. I am old-fashioned, I don't want it to break. If it breaks I want it fixed fast, and not at the cost of me going on food stamps. I am old-fashioned, I think this is reasonable.

 

[Benjamin Marks]

I think if your digital camera works for 10 years, you are doing well. I purchased my M9 in 2008 or thereabouts. I know I had it in hand when the kids went to Taiwan for a research trip with my wife. I have wanted a B&W digital Leica forever . . .just because. When I get the scratch together, I will buy one. I think I have about 20-25 years of photography left in me and that doesn't seem like much time. So I tend to think that most of my gear will outlast me. I dunno. It's really about the images. . . isn't it?

 

[Godfrey]

I've had Leica cameras for over forty years.

First: They've never needed much service. An occasional CLA, an occasional repair due to something stupid that I did (like drop the camera by accident), an occasional repair for an old camera stuffed up with dust and grime from sitting in someone's sock drawer for a couple of decades. All taken together, I've owned and used perhaps 13 to 19 Leica cameras (focusing specifically on the Barnak and M models, 13 cameras almost evenly split between film and digital models), and I've made many, many exposures with them. I've had to have something serviced perhaps five times, aside from regular preventative maintenance. In forty years... So they just don't break all that often unless I act like a klutz.

Second: I've always dealt directly with Leica USA or DAG for service. Just like I've always dealt directly with Hasselblad, Nikon USA, Olympus, Pentax, Rollei, etc (yes, I've owned and used a lot of cameras over the course of time). The average service for all of them has taken approximately five weeks from shipping out to receiving back. A few ... double that. A couple ... half that. One thing that's been special about working with Leica is that they have, unlike any of the others, done me favors along the way .... repairing something FoC that was well out of warranty, finding a simple problem and fixing it, charging me very little for that work, etc. The only other vendor that's done that has been Olympus.

And yes, sometimes something has broken or needed service inconveniently. I restrain myself from complaining too much about such things because, after all, the same is true of any of my cars, bicycles, home appliances, televisions, computers, you name it. They're all just machines and none are perfect. I can't apply a different standard to cameras than I do to any of them. All of these machines are mostly reliable and consistent, and they all, sometimes, just break. It's the nature of things.

So I just don't get all the whinging and whining. Leica cameras work well, most of the time, and they occasionally break. Leica support has been as good or better than anyone else's, for me. I don't worry too much about whether any specific camera is going to last longer than I will, or care much about what it costs ... On that score, if I use any camera enough, well, I'm getting my money's worth out of it. That's what I bought it for.

Leicas are good, so are Nikons, so are Sonys, etc etc. They all have their moments of advantage and their moments of being a pain in the butt. Buy what you like, what you can afford, and use it. Worry overmuch because it was expensive, don't carry it because you're afraid it's fragile ... You bought the wrong thing.

G

 

[boojum]

I think if your digital camera works for 10 years, you are doing well. I purchased my M9 in 2008 or thereabouts. I know I had it in hand when the kids went to Taiwan for a research trip with my wife. I have wanted a B&W digital Leica forever . . .just because. When I get the scratch together, I will buy one. I think I have about 20-25 years of photography left in me and that doesn't seem like much time. So I tend to think that most of my gear will outlast me. I dunno. It's really about the images. . . isn't it?

Small point, the M9 was introduced 9/9/2009.

For all the grief that comes along with the Leicas, the M bodies are a really good solution to the "how do I get that scenery into a place that can store it?" problem. They are compact and efficient. There are more compact cameras, like a Pentax Q series, there are cameras with better images, like HB, but the damned things are in that sweet spot, can pretty much be counted on to work and will hand you back a good image. That's so important.

For all my bitching I have not had one fail yet.

 

[Coldkennels]

Demand for lost lenses is so miniscule, it will be no replacement.

As mentioned elsewhere, companies are already producing these things. One company is now manufacturing replacement elements for one of Canon's LTM lenses that is often rendered useless due to element-etching haze (maybe the 50/1.5?), so who knows what the future brings.

I'm not aware of any third party mechanical pats for Leicas.

They exist! Ribbons, curtains and beam splitters; new take up spools; even entire new body shells... and manufacturing new cogs is a relatively simple process. I've seen some people making cogs and gears themselves to replace damaged ones in their own cameras - beyond me, but not impossible. Most impressive is the guys in the Netherlands who made drop-in replacements for the M6's metering board.

Again, going back to what I was trying to get across earlier... it's much easier to DIY parts for the very simple Leica II over something a lot more complex like the Leica M5. When we get to something all-electronic with auto-everything, it's a whole order of magnitude more complicated again. Does this matter in the long run? Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe it just doesn't bear thinking about.

For me, it's just frustrating to see things go to landfill because fixing them is borderline impossible. I had a washing machine fail three or four years ago; one board inside had died, and according to the guy who came out to look at it, fixing the problem (sourcing the part, tearing down the machine, fitting it, getting it running again, and rebuilding it) would cost a lot more than the washing machine originally cost. It was a write-off. And was that washing machine any better at washing clothes than the relatively crude one (and fully serviceable) my mother had when I was a child? Not in the slightest.

This is an experience that's being repeated with every type of device all over the globe - a globe full of 8 billion people who all want consumer goods, whether it's washing machines, cars, TVs... or cameras. When you think about the scale of this, this is quite obviously madness.

Of course, when you're thinking about your own individual use of an item, and not engaging in some all-encompassing handwringing anxiety... how much does it really matter if your camera lasts five years, ten years... twenty? How long do a lot of us have left anyway?

I'm reminded of something I saw someone post on Reddit once. He worked at a computer store, and asked a customer if he wanted the extended warranty on the laptop he'd just bought.

"Extended warranty? Son, I'm 82 years old. I don't even buy green bananas."

 

[Godfrey]

Small point, the M9 was introduced 9/9/2009.

For all the grief that comes along with the Leicas, the M bodies are a really good solution to the "how do I get that scenery into a place that can store it?" problem. They are compact and efficient. There are more compact cameras, like a Pentax Q series, there are cameras with better images, like HB, but the damned things are in that sweet spot, can pretty much be counted on to work and will hand you back a good image. That's so important.

For all my bitching I have not had one fail yet.

So: For what reason "... all my bitching"?

G

 

[DownUnder]

In 2009 new D90 was 100 cad more than open box 500D. We went with open box. To replace EOS300. Film became no sense for family pictures. I have around 100k exposures on it over years.
Good luck to have this many with film Leica.

Some 16 year old digital cameras keep on going. Leicas, not sure, I own only a 70+ year old Barnack, almost as old as me and it's still doing okay - as I am, but when something inside me fails it won't be a camera repair shop job.

I had a Canon 450D kit, my first digital - a gift in 2008 or 2009 from my SO, who bought it dirty-cheaply from a work colleague who didn't care for it. I recall he paid AUD $1300 for the (two lens) kit. I bought it for half that, and I thought I had a real bargain.

I soon learned otherwise. For everyday snaps it was adequate, but I didn't like the colors, I had to do too much post processing to get those right for me. Ditto the mid-tones. White cat fur came out blue or green and no amount of in-camera adjusting ever fixed this. Friends who had similar Canons all complained of the same problems, so mine weren't unique.

To my dismay I found I was getting better results with a dead-meter Nikkormat and a Weston Master. Quite a sobering revelation when everybody and their cat had a digisomethingorother.

The crunch came when a stock photo buyer I sent a shipload of D450 images to (at the client's request), rejected them all, saying the colors and the mid-tones were "unsuitable" for reproduction.

Many I know love Canons and do good photography with them. So maybe I just had a crap shooter. Anyway, I sold the thing at a loss and bought the D90 which we still have. Never regretted this decision.

That D90 now has 130,000 clicks on it and is still going. Last week we were gifted another D90, with a whoppingly low 4,000 on its snapmeter. So we are now set up for at least nine lives (thanks, cats!).

It takes all kinds to make a village, so the old saying goes. Ditto to make a camera. For me Nikon is that camera (with Fuji a close second).

 

[splitimageview]

After purchasing an M8 and a Q from Popflash, never again a new digital Leica. It pains me to say that, but the experiences were simply not anywhere near acceptable for a premium brand.

After the M8 Leica just kept on with self-inflicted wounds, from the aborted 'perpetual upgrade' program, to loose strap lugs, to coffee stained LCDs, to corroded sensors, the list seemingly never ends...including the absurd battery shortage issue which is now over a year and still going.

In my view this is simply unacceptable for a premium brand offered at premium plus prices. Others may be ok with this or haven't had similar experiences, but I'm more than happy with far less expensive offerings that have real service and support with reasonable turn-round time.

 

[DownUnder]

(...) from the aborted 'perpetual upgrade' program, to loose strap lugs, to coffee stained LCDs, to corroded sensors, the list seemingly never ends...including the absurd battery shortage issue which is now over a year and still going. (...)

Coffee-stained LCDs? There lurks a good story here. Share it with us, please!

 

[OmegaB600]

if one can ever learn the battery specifications, and the specs for the electrical system in the camera,, one can figure out a new battery for it... inelegant but in the end the only choice.

I have a camera, a K mount, its the sister in a different outer shell of Nikons LAST film camera, FM10. Same issues of battery compartment screw cap not lasting long at all. I had an NOS cosina badged one that came with the screw cap broken. I dont use the light meter much... but its cute to have. But when the cap doesnt work with cellophane tape holding it together, im gonna figure out the correct modern battery and put in a new compartment.

 

[splitimageview]

Coffee-stained LCDs? There lurks a good story here. Share it with us, please!

M8 coffee stain gets larger?

I'm curious. When the M8 LCD stain appears, does it gradually get larger to cover the whole screen? or does it stabalize after the ist appearence?

rangefinderforum.com

 

[DownUnder]

M8 coffee stain gets larger?

I'm curious. When the M8 LCD stain appears, does it gradually get larger to cover the whole screen? or does it stabalize after the ist appearence?

rangefinderforum.com

Ha, I’ve learned somethimg new today, good one!!

I will now go and check my (made in Japan) Nikons and Fujis for - sake stains.