The WW2 Leica buried by a German soldier’s widow

[Paul T.]

I read the piece without reading these comments. And found it very disturbing.

No one is responsible for the acts of their grandfather. But they are responsible for acknowledging reality, and not giving us a delusional version of the truth.

Quite a few kids joied the Hitler youth without really knowing why (ie Gunther Grass). But anyone in that division volunteered for it.

 

[raid]

History can be quite disturbing.
I was lucky to have been able to leave Iraq, but many Iraqi young men (and old) had to sign onto the Baath Party (which was ruled by Saddam Hussein). Germany in the 1930's and later had many people sign on to that ruling party.

 

[David Hughes]

One of the problems I have noticed, old age adds to it, is that history isn't really taught these days (like maths and science). Few could name those on both sides during WW2 and most have no idea what Operation Bagration was and that there was an eastern and western front.

Regards, David

 

[Bart Bart]

I don't think Germans should be ashamed of their past. The German working class had plenty of hardships after WW1, another unjust war (aren't they all?) Adding the threat of Communist revolution, absurd usury, and moral decay during Weimar, I don't see why they were wrong?

If anything now modern Germans are pacifist and passive to a fault so why not lay off the continued hatred because after all, you won? Seems kind of petty to continually shame and guilt trip Germans and anti-Communists.

For goodness sake you better hope we never lose our conflicts or our grandsons will be nagged and punished for it 75 years later.

Germans have been and are great people. Beautiful story without having to interject a questionable narrative.

 

[Huss]

I don't think Germans should be ashamed of their past. The German working class had plenty of hardships after WW1, another unjust war (aren't they all?) Adding the threat of Communist revolution, absurd usury, and moral decay during Weimar, I don't see why they were wrong?
.

I think the murder of millions of Jews may have had something to do with it.

 

[Deleted member 65559]

I think the murder of millions of Jews may have had something to do with it.

Poles, Czechs, Ukrainians, blacks, Gypsies as well
"Deuschland uber alles" isn't a "questionable" narrative at all.

There's no hatred here Frank. But it's not simply a nice family story about a grandfather's Leica.

 

[peterm1]

Originally Posted by Bart Bart View Post
I don't think Germans should be ashamed of their past. The German working class had plenty of hardships after WW1, another unjust war (aren't they all?) Adding the threat of Communist revolution, absurd usury, and moral decay during Weimar, I don't see why they were wrong?

I think the murder of millions of Jews may have had something to do with it.

Absolutely. Embarking on a war of aggression is bad enough. Embarking on a war of aggression with the explicit aim of slaughtering millions of people (Jews, Gypsys, Slavics, etc) on ethnic grounds in the sick belief that they are inferior.... well you get what you deserve.

Germany started at least 3 wars of aggression (plus an earlier German Danish war over disputed border territory) in the late 19th and early 20th century. The Franco Prussian war (though technically this was started by France following German diplomatic moves to ally itself with Spain which was an obvious threat aimed directly at the heart of France - truth is Bismarck wanted the war as he saw it as his means to power over a unified Germany) , then WW1 then WW2. I believe the war thing (leaving aside the even bigger crime of genocide for the moment) had its roots in the domination by militaristic Prussian elements in German leadership before and after its unification / creation of the "German Empire" in 1871. Let's face it, the Prussians had a militaristic culture at least at that time and believed they should not just dominate unified Germany but also Europe.

It is well accepted today that WW2 and the National Socialists had their roots in WW1. Anyone reading the history of WW1 will be struck by the number of times contemporary British people denounced German "Prussianism" as they called it and saw the war for what it was- a war of aggression being waged by Germany against its neighbors, Similar in many ways to France at the beginning of the 19th century under Napoleon. We would simply call it militarism. WW1 also had its roots in the way German government was structured with the Emperor Kaiser Wilhelm in direct control of Government. And by all accounts he was a decidedly sick puppy with an inferiority complex that fed his aggression to dominate other nations as a means of compensating for it - especially Britain and the British royal family with whom he had a weird twisted love - hate relation ship. (He was driven to impress them but when he could not he hated them instead - the jilted lover syndrome) And of course once WW1 was fought (but never properly concluded) it now seems almost inevitable with the wisdom of hindsight that WW2 (the second innings as some Brits call it) would eventually follow - many insightful people predicted it at the time.

It is striking that Japan (another country dominated by militarists in essence from the Meiji restoration to the end of 1945) basically adopted the Prussian model of government used by Germany in its 1889 constitution. With much the same results - disenfranchisement of large numbers of Japanese citizens who might have put a brake on aggression and domination by violent militarists - mostly from the old samurai / daimyo class who wanted war above all else.

As to the National Socialists, ........how do you explain such sickness? And how do explain this ugly ideology's ability to capture an entire nation? But then again in history we constantly see odious ideas pushed by ugly demagogues, then rising up on a groundswell of popular but ignorant support by appealing to the basest instincts of millions of people who then go on a violence and slaughtering spree. Let's face it. People are essentially violent sheep and there are those in society only too happy to use those violent and yet sheepish impulses to their own sick ends.

 

[charjohncarter]

Great story, all my German cameras are post war, but still I'd like to know some of their stories even if they aren't as good as this one.

 

[johnrt]

I don't think Germans should be ashamed of their past. The German working class had plenty of hardships after WW1, another unjust war (aren't they all?) Adding the threat of Communist revolution, absurd usury, and moral decay during Weimar, I don't see why they were wrong?

If anything now modern Germans are pacifist and passive to a fault so why not lay off the continued hatred because after all, you won? Seems kind of petty to continually shame and guilt trip Germans and anti-Communists.

For goodness sake you better hope we never lose our conflicts or our grandsons will be nagged and punished for it 75 years later.

Germans have been and are great people. Beautiful story without having to interject a questionable narrative.

Not one single post in this topic as expressed an ounce of hatred, shame or guilt upon Germans.

The opinions expressed are those on the Nazi era government and Waffen SS. Specifically the Albanian, Belgian, Bulgarian, Croat, Danish, Estonian, Finnish, French, German, Hungarian, Indian, Italian, Latvian, Dutch, Norwegian, Romanian, Spanish, Soviet, Swedish, Swiss, Serbian and British soldiers that made up their ranks. The soldiers of all these countries committed mass genocide across Europe on an industrial scale. Crimes against humanity which must never be forgotten or airbrushed from the stories of those present to witness or those who committed the acts.

I am utterly shocked you find The Holocaust “a questionable narrative”.

As for your signature (a phrase associated with White Supremacy and the Fascist far right); don’t be upset that you don’t have a cause to fight for as a white person, be grateful you don’t need one.

 

[raid]

I don’t like to see hurtful remarks being posted.

 

[Peter Jennings]

People can reveal so much about themselves with just a single comment.

 

[charjohncarter]

Not one single post in this topic as expressed an ounce of hatred, shame or guilt upon Germans.

The opinions expressed are those on the Nazi era government and Waffen SS. Specifically the Albanian, Belgian, Bulgarian, Croat, Danish, Estonian, Finnish, French, German, Hungarian, Indian, Italian, Latvian, Dutch, Norwegian, Romanian, Spanish, Soviet, Swedish, Swiss, Serbian and British soldiers that made up their ranks. The soldiers of all these countries committed mass genocide across Europe on an industrial scale. Crimes against humanity which must never be forgotten or airbrushed from the stories of those present to witness or those who committed the acts.

I am utterly shocked you find The Holocaust “a questionable narrative”.

As for your signature (a phrase associated with White Supremacy and the Fascist far right); don’t be upset that you don’t have a cause to fight for as a white person, be grateful you don’t need one.

What? My uncle was killed during that war, a war that we (US) didn't want. My cousin left without a father. Get a life. Or maybe a job or a very sexually active partner.

Here he is a few months before; Rungvald:

Around 1942 by John Carter, on Flickr

 

[Zonan]

I don't think Germans should be ashamed of their past. The German working class had plenty of hardships after WW1, another unjust war (aren't they all?) Adding the threat of Communist revolution, absurd usury, and moral decay during Weimar, I don't see why they were wrong?

If anything now modern Germans are pacifist and passive to a fault so why not lay off the continued hatred because after all, you won? Seems kind of petty to continually shame and guilt trip Germans and anti-Communists.

For goodness sake you better hope we never lose our conflicts or our grandsons will be nagged and punished for it 75 years later.

Germans have been and are great people. Beautiful story without having to interject a questionable narrative.

Now how did I know this was Frank?

 

[johnrt]

What? My uncle was killed during that war, a war that we (US) didn't want. My cousin left without a father. Get a life. Or maybe a job or partner.

You have absolutely lost me with that comment, would you care to expand your argument without resorting to insults?

 

[charjohncarter]

You have absolutely lost me with that comment, would you care to expand your argument without resorting to insults?

We can't care about this stuff now, it's over. If you want an old German or Japanese camera go buy one (or don't).

 

[johnrt]

We can't care about this stuff now, it's over. If you want an old German or Japanese camera go buy one (or don't).

That is exactly the opposite of what I was arguing. We must still care, we must not forget.

My argument is that it was not just Germans that committed atrocities and nobody was expressing specific “anti German nationality” opinions.

Should we be telling Germany how to be ashamed of itself 75 years later? I don't think we need to as they do a really good job of it themselves & police the extreme far right much better than the countries both you & I live in today. It is illegal to express opinions denying the Holocaust happened in Germany, unlike other countries.

My Grandfather was in the British Army during the war, my wife (yes I do have one but I will keep her proclivities to myself if you don’t mind) had 3 great uncles that fought in Africa and one that was badly wounded at Arnhem. Another was a guard at the Nuremberg trials for 3 years.

Your Uncle was an exceptionally brave man to go to war on the opposite side of the world to fight against Fascism and genocide, I’m very sorry he didn’t return.

 

[Bart Bart]

I love how the definitions are fluid depending who people are argue with. Very telling.

Most Germans are good people. Why is it so hard to admit just that?

 

[raid]

It may be time to close down this thread.

 

[charjohncarter]

That is exactly the opposite of what I was arguing. We must still care, we must not forget.

My argument is that it was not just Germans that committed atrocities and nobody was expressing specific “anti German nationality” opinions.

Should we be telling Germany how to be ashamed of itself 75 years later? I don't think we need to as they do a really good job of it themselves & police the extreme far right much better than the countries both you & I live in today. It is illegal to express opinions denying the Holocaust happened in Germany, unlike other countries.

My Grandfather was in the British Army during the war, my wife (yes I do have one but I will keep her proclivities to myself if you don’t mind) had 3 great uncles that fought in Africa and one that was badly wounded at Arnhem. Another was a guard at the Nuremberg trials for 3 years.

Your Uncle was an exceptionally brave man to go to war on the opposite side of the world to fight against Fascism and genocide, I’m very sorry he didn’t return.

Thanks, but it is time to forget. I do get a little weary of people complaining, but I especially get tired of people who start wars all of a sudden feel like the defenders are overreacting with their response.

So the best to you and your wife, past history isn't our problem. Was Hamburg or Dresden an atrocity (or in my part of the world Hiroshima)?

 

[Bart Bart]

I wouldn't want to break any German laws so I'll withdraw from this thread, please carry on.