The Zone System and dynamic range - on what I don't understand

[JHP]

with digital cameras there are five zones to work with, just like slide film. so when shooting digital, get the highlight detail and bring back the shadows in the RAW software.

With digital we have the ability to bring up shadows in post as you say, what do you do with slide film? Always wondered this...

 

[Monochrom]

Check this one on films by dante stella

http://www.dantestella.com/technical/dynamic.html

About digital you can benefit from using raw software, but also you should get a low contrast lens when shooting into harsh light.

I bought a sigma dp2 m with that Foveon sensor because it handles harsh light like noone.

Try to use you camera to fit in the given DR of it´s sensor. That should bring again that thing said about digital and slide film.

 

[mdarnton]

It's a misconception to think that you can't get all the higher zones in the subject onto the paper if the subject range is way beyond the traditional 10 zones. I like this shot as an example. It's on film, and I measured a 16 stop range (including the sunlit wall outside the window) when I shot it. I set an exposure based on zone three shadow detail and let the bright areas take care of themselves. Though it's processed digitally from the negative, all the information is there, and I could have gotten it into the print with a LOT of burning and dodging.

Personally, the only thing I've ever used the zone system for is for understanding what zone three means, and how to place it. That's worth the whole system, right there.

The reason for basing exposure on the shadows is because underexposed blank film is blank--you can't print anything from it if it's not there. At the other end, though, detail maybe doesn't go on forever, but for at least 16 stops, probably 20, so it's there to drag out in the printing. The original intent of the zone system was, I think, to fit scenes like my picture into a better fit with printing by compressing the 16 zones into something the paper could handle with less burning and dodging.

Slides have only about 6 subject stops of range, and they suffer the problem negatives do in the shadow areas at both ends: underexposure is black and unprintable as on a neg, but also, highlights turn clear and can't be burned in as with a neg. So, in summary: slides, 6 stops range, with solid bookends; film, maybe 20 stops of range, with a soft boundary at the top end.

My Nikon D300 gives about an 8 stop range, and the best newest camera give about 12 between pure black and pure white--the same problem slides have, hard boundaries: once you get white, there's no headroom. And that's why I'm still shooting mainly film, waiting for a camera that will handle the tonal range I customarily need.

The picture: http://www.flickr.com/photos/mdarnton/6929081535/sizes/l/in/photostream/

 

[airfrogusmc]

The reason, according to Adams, for the zone system was so one could place zones where they wanted them consistently to achieve what they saw in their minds eye at the time of exposure which may or may not be the way the scene presents itself. You base the exposure on shadows and then control the highlights through negative or positive development times. If you spot meter the scene and the highlights are going to high on the scale you can bring them back using development times of say N-1, N-2 etc depending on how far they need to come back and where you want them placed in relationship to your shadow. After 50% of your normal dev time the shadows are developed so what you are controlling from that point on is the highlights and upper mid tones to some extent. If the scene is to flat and your highlights are not high enough for what you imagine where they should be you can bring them up on the scale by increasing development time N+1, N+2 etc. This control is the reason many of the great landscape photographers shot and still shoot large format B&W film. The control that you can't get with color film. You start playing with development times and temp with color you start getting uncontrollable color shifts.

The zone system is just a tool to help you create. It can expand or contract DR buy using tools like the right film and dev combinations and the right exposure, processing and printing techniques. Using the zone system can put all of that control consistently in your hands so that you can effectively create what you've seen in your minds eye.

 

[Tijmendal]

I think I understand your question - how can say 20 stops of dynamic film range translate into 10 zones, which are also conceived as being 1 stop apart.

In practice, the extra dynamic range of the film will not be translated into variation upon printing - you may get a measurable change in film density when you double exposure at the top of the range, but the result on printed paper will still be pure white (still zone X).

So the missing part of the puzzle is calibration - you determine a development time for a specific film that translates a grey card (zone V) into the correct density on the finished print. That sets the midpoint of your dynamic range. If your film is capable of recording intensity variation above Zone X and below Zone 0, it does not make a difference upon printing.

Roger, forgive me, I found a couple books on the zone system at the used book shop, and ended up reading them!

Randy

Yes! This is exactly my question. Things are definitely getting clearer, but I'd be lying if I said I fully understand everything.
Thanks for the help everyone. Really appreciate it.

 

[airfrogusmc]

Yes! This is exactly my question. Things are definitely getting clearer, but I'd be lying if I said I fully understand everything.
Thanks for the help everyone. Really appreciate it.

If you are really interested I would pick up the Adams trilogy of books The Camera, The Negative and The Print. Also you might want to supplement those with Fred Pickers Zone VI Workshop.

From Adams The Negative Page 19

Zone 0
Complete lack of density in the negative image, other than film base density plus fog. Total black

Zone I
Efective threshold. First step above black in print. Slight tonality, but no texture.

Zone II
First suggestion of texture. Deep tonalities, representing the darkest part of the image in which some detail is required.

Zone III
Average dark materials. Low values showing adequate texture.

Zone IV
Average dark foliage. Dark stone. Landscape shadow. Recommended shadow value for portraits in sunlight.

Zone V
Clear north sky. (panchromatic rendering). Dark skin. Gray stone. Average weathered wood. Middle gray (18% reflectance).

Zone VI
Average caucasian skin value in sunlight or artificial light, an in diffused skylight or soft light. Light stone. Clear north sky (orthochromatic rendering). Shadows on snow in sunlight snowscapes.

Zone VII
Very light skin. Light-gray objects. Average snow with acute side lighting.

Zone VIII
Whites with textures and delicate values (not blank whites). Snow in full shade. Highlights on Caucasian skin.

Zone IX
Glaring white surfaces. Snow in flat sunlight. White without texture. (the only subjects higher than Zone IX would be light sources, either actual or reflected; but they would obviously be rendered in the print as maximum white values of the paper surface.