Thin negatives with TMAX 400 and D76

[smbilgin]

Hello,

I faced a new (to me) problem with my last roll and decided to ask you guys.

Recently I bought a user condition M2 and Summicron 50 rigid. Last weekend I went out for some test shooting but I changed too many parameters at the same time, so I cannot figure out what is the cause of my problem.

The weekend before this weekend I shot with M2+ Jupiter 8 and TriX. I use hendheld Porst lightmeter which has been very reliable so far. Developed the film with Ilfosol 3 (whis is I am very familiar with) and the results were quite OK. But this weekend I shot with the same M2 but with cron 50 this time by using TMax 400. Then I stupidly changed the developer to D76 (not that it is a bad developer though). I decided to follow Massive Dev Chart suggestion.

So my procedure was like this:

* D76 1+1
* Stainless steel one reel tank
* 10.15 min development @ 20 degrees celcius
(30 sec continuous agitation and 2 times for each 30 sec)
* 1 min stop bath (actually I use 30 grams lemon salt dissolved in one litre water)
* 6 min fix (Ilford Rapid Fixer. It was its third run)
* 12 min running water
* 1 min photo-flo

Developer, stop and fixer was prepared with distilled water.

When I took out the film from the tank I realised the whole roll looked very thin. And when I scanned them (Canoscan 8800F) they were all way too dark. Of course I did some level adjustment during the scan process and did some PP with photoshop and saved most of them.

Most probably, problem didn't occur because of exposure. Since I am quite familiar with my light meter, I don't suspect any exposure error. Also the values were quite match to Sunny 16.

Here is just two example of the (not corrected) scans. I really think this is a developing error but I am not sure of the exact parameter. Some Kodak datasheet says that the developing time should be 12.25 min, Mas Dev Chart says 10.15; some says I should have agitated during the whole first minute and 10 sec for each minute; some says I shouldn't have.

As a result, I am quite confused.

Your comments and helps are appreciated.

Thanks in advance.
Mustafa

 

[venchka]

Give Xtol 1:3 a try. Works for me.

Wayne

 

[Chriscrawfordphoto]

D-76 1+1 is an excellent developer for Tmax 400. My tests, and over 100 rolls of it successfully developed, show that a developing time of 9 minutes at 68 degrees in D-76 1+1 is correct.

How old was your D-76? More than a month old, and it often goes bad unless the bottle was filled all the way o the top. Another consideration with D-76 is that when diluted 1+1, you need to use a tank twice the size needed for the rolls of film. So, if doing one rolls, you need to do it in a 2 roll tank (use an empty reel to fill the extra space). If doing two rolls, you need a 4 reel tank. This is because D-76 is a fairly weak developer, and diluted there is not enough of it in the working strength solution. Kodak's data sheet for D-76 says it requires 250ml of the stock solution for each roll....so diluted 1+1 you need a total of 500ml of developer in the tank for a single roll (500ml fills a two-roll tank).

If you tried to develop in a single roll tank, the film will be under developed, and that would explain the results you got.

 

[ooze]

From the Kodak datasheet for D76 diluted 1+1:

You can develop one 135-3 roll (80 square inches)
in 473 mL (16 ounces) or two rolls together in 946 mL
(one quart) of diluted developer. If you process one
135-36 roll in a 237 mL (8-ounce) tank or two 135-36 rolls
in a 473 mL (16-ounce) tank, increase the development time
by 10 percent (see the following tables).

I can't see a major problem with your procedure Mustafa. Tmax400 is my main film. I use a handheld incident meter, expose at EI200, develop for 9 minutes in ID11 diluted 1+1 and get very good results. I develop two reels in a 600ml tank.

How high is base fog? If high, maybe the film was long past its expiry date and/or badly stored.

 

[palec]

Do you know the batch of TMax film? I had problems with batch 0166 and Xtol.

 

[smbilgin]

Thank you all guys for your helpful comments. (I got confused more, though 🙂 )

My developer was prepared the day before I developed the films. And D76's expiration date was 2015. So it was perfectly fresh developer. My film's expiration date was 12/2013 and it's batch number was 0165. I bought it recently and it was stored in a cool environment. So the film and the developer were fresh (unless a possible problem with 0165 batch, don't know)

From all of your comments, I assume the problem is underdevelopment. However I still cannot figure out the exact problem.

Datasheet says 12.30 min, Massive Dev Chart says 10.15 min, ooze and Chriscrawfordphoto say 9 min. I developed 10.15 min.

Since I don't have a 4 reel tank, I need to find an compensation solution for my developing time. If I take the datasheet as reference (12.30 min) and extend the developing time according to their and your suggestion due to the tank limitation, for about 10%; so let's say 14 min @ 20C would be enough for an optimum development time. Or am I completely wrong?

I don't want to switch the developer from D76 to something else, because everybody I know who develop their film by themselves suggested strongly D76. And I prepared the stock solution very carefully and stored it in a few brown glass bottles (500 ml each) (full loaded).

I will try to solve my problem with two new rolls this week and if I cannot find a way, I'll toss all my TMax stash to garbage and will back to Tri-X and Ilfosol 3 reluctantly.

So, if you could help me to find out the reason one last time it would be very helpful.

Thank you all.

 

[palec]

My problem has been solved with presoaking the film in water before pouring in the developer.
If you can afford to spend time and material, try it and compare with the first roll.

Here is a thread on apug.org dealing with possibly same problem:
http://www.apug.org/forums/forum37/...ol-getting-thinner-negatives-than-before.html

 

[Chriscrawfordphoto]

You might consider switching to Tmax Developer, because it gives very nearly the same results as D-76, but is powerful enough that you can fill a tank with film with no issues.

Also, you mentioned preparing the developer the day before. Do you mean you just dissolved the powder, or did you prepare the working strength 1+1 dilution the day before? Once diluted, it does not have a long shelf-life so if you did the 1+1 dilution the day before using, that might be the problem.

 

[smbilgin]

Hi palec,
Presoaking is a good idea. I will try it next time. Thanks.

Chirstopher,
I prepared the stock chemical (dissolved powder) one day before the development. And I prepared 1+1 just before the development. Let's say 2 or 3 minutes ago.


Next time I will presoak the film and develop it for 12min 30 sec or something between 13 and 14 min. We'll see..

Thank you all guys.

 

[J. Borger]

Tmax400 in D76 is my most used combination for 35mm film.
I expose normaly at iso 400 and develop 12.30 minutes at 20C one reel at a time .... ca 450 ml liquid (225 D76 stock + 225 water). Never had any issues with the negatives and they scan perfect.

 

[pau3]

How do you agitate? It looks like the sides of the pictures are lighter
(= more dense) than the center. Are you inverting the tank at least
twice and vigorously every 30s? If you do not agitate vigorously enough,
you may have uneven negatives like the ones above.

 

[smbilgin]

How do you agitate? It looks like the sides of the pictures are lighter
(= more dense) than the center. Are you inverting the tank at least
twice and vigorously every 30s? If you do not agitate vigorously enough,
you may have uneven negatives like the ones above.

My agitation pattern is; continuous agitation for the first 30 sec and then twice for each 30 sec. If there is a better way, I'd really like to know.

Thanks again.

 

[pau3]

My agitation pattern is; continuous agitation for the first 30 sec and then twice for each 30 sec. If there is a better way, I'd really like to know.

Thanks again.

The frequency seems alright. But I wonder about the method of agitation.
Are you inverting the tank vigorously?

 

[smbilgin]

The frequency seems alright. But I wonder about the method of agitation.
Are you inverting the tank vigorously?

I think so... Maybe not the first 30 sec (I tend to agitate gently for the first 30 sec) but I spin my wrist quite vigorously for the rest of the time. I try to achieve an optimum contrast level; not complete blacks and whites or complete grey without blacks and whites.

I developed Tri-X, TMax 100, TMax 400 and Lucky SHD 100 with Ilfosol 3 and never had a problem; I switched to the famous D76 and the very first result is this. :bang: Anyway... I won't give up.. I'll try all of yours suggestions this weekend.

Thank you all again.

 

[Beemermark]

Everyone is blaming the developer but there is nothing wrong with the times and methods used. You want to know what you did wrong and I do not understand all the replies recommending a different developer.

I think you under exposed the film.

 

[charjohncarter]

They look like there isn't enough shadow detail so expose more (one stop to start). This is the equivalent of lowering your EI (EI 200). You are developing enough as the highlights are where they should be. Remember: expose for the shadows and develop for the highlights (although this isn't really totally correct as agitation isn't considered; it is a good start). I agree with Chris check that your D-76 is fresh. But shadows develop to completion first so that is why I feel you should lower your EI.

 

[Photo_Smith]

Absolutely under exposed or under developed! Any good developer should give you satisfactory results with most films.
D76 is certainly a god developer, no need to change it.
Test your lightmeter, make sure it works, also check the developer times and agitation.

Either more exposure or longer dev time will help- you don't ned to change developer.

 

[imush]

They do look underexposed. Is the whole roll like this? the examples above have your central subject in the shadow, or some bright lights in the background (which are always hard to estimate the correction for). Maybe you just did not compensate enough.

But if you do have more evenly lit scenes on that film with the same problem, then I would start looking into the film or processing.

 

[icebear]

Hi Mustafa, apart from the chance that anything could be wrong with you chemistry.
Are you absolutely certain your camera shutter is working somewhat linear at all times ?
To make sure I would expose a color slide film with all possible time/aperture combinations that give you a properly exposed shot metered with your handheld meter.
e.g. you meter 1/125s& f4 ,then do combinations 1/60 & f 5.6 , 1/30 & f8 etc to cover all your times.

 

[Beemermark]

Good old rule of thumb is that contrast is product of development and density is a product of exposure.