Thomas-Paris
Member
I'm thinking about getting one of those cute little 9x12 cm folders as a portable LF camera. Getting film for them doesn't look very difficult, but I am a little worried that I'll regret having an odd sized camera later. Somete in the next year or so, I want to get a monorail view camera, which will presumably be 4x5. So a couple questions: any thoughts about those old European folders as portable LF rangefinders? Is it easy/reasonable to adapt them to take 4x5 holders and just produce a smaller image without making the camera into a big ugly monster? Am I going to have a hard time finding holders for developing these in small tanks? There doesn't seem to be a lot about these cameras here, and I'm wondering if there's maybe a reason for that.
Leigh Youdale
Well-known
There's nothing "little" or "cute" about them. They're monsters.
Parts and information are both hard to come by.
But it depends what you want it for. If it's to admire and fondle and very occasionally take out for a breath of fresh air you might well be satisfied.
If it's as an instrument to take photographs with relative convenience and with good lens and shutter options, keep saving and get your 5x4 next year.
To me it would be like buying a car from the 1920's and expecting it to meet my transport needs.
Parts and information are both hard to come by.
But it depends what you want it for. If it's to admire and fondle and very occasionally take out for a breath of fresh air you might well be satisfied.
If it's as an instrument to take photographs with relative convenience and with good lens and shutter options, keep saving and get your 5x4 next year.
To me it would be like buying a car from the 1920's and expecting it to meet my transport needs.
jnoir
Well-known
I use Voigtländer Avus and KW Patent Etui in 9x12. No rangefinders, but I don't need them either. Just a few weeks ago I spent half the summer payroll on sheet film from Ilford's ULF, stocking up for the next 12 months. For those times when I do not want to carry the film holders, etc. I use a rollfilm back, that gives me e.g. 8 6x9 exposures on 120 film (the focal lenght of 135mm/150mm is nice for that). They are very cheap, and good performers.
I have been long thinking on buying a 4x5. However, I do not shoot enough LF to justify the extra expense (in film, processing, darkroom... I already have all I need for processing by myself up to 9x12), and I like classic cameras best. I am thinking about building my own camera, but still...
I develop my 9x12 sheets with Jobo tanks, either manually or in a Jobo CPA. You can process them in trays, but for me it is more convenient the tank. Combi-Plan tanks are also quite nice.
For me, it is like buying a 1920's car and enjoying it, its sound, its design, its quirks, its handling... It may not be confortable, it may not be fast, it may not have GPS and MP3 reader, but I like to enjoy the journey, not only to go from A to B ;-)
I have been long thinking on buying a 4x5. However, I do not shoot enough LF to justify the extra expense (in film, processing, darkroom... I already have all I need for processing by myself up to 9x12), and I like classic cameras best. I am thinking about building my own camera, but still...
I develop my 9x12 sheets with Jobo tanks, either manually or in a Jobo CPA. You can process them in trays, but for me it is more convenient the tank. Combi-Plan tanks are also quite nice.
For me, it is like buying a 1920's car and enjoying it, its sound, its design, its quirks, its handling... It may not be confortable, it may not be fast, it may not have GPS and MP3 reader, but I like to enjoy the journey, not only to go from A to B ;-)
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P C Headland
Well-known
I'm not sure if Leigh is being serious or not....
The 9x12cm folders can be quite small, especially compared to a more modern 4x5 or even DSLR. The KW Patent Etui is particularly compact. My ZEH Zeca is no heavier than my 6x6 CRF folders. The heavy bits are the metal film holders, especially when they have glass plates in them.
Since 9x12cm film is still relatively easy to get, you're better of sticking with it. Unless of course you want to shoot colour slides, then it does become more challenging, and it confuses the film lab when the note about it being 9x12 falls off
Whatever you get, make sure it comes with at least a couple of holders. There are numerous types of holder, all different enough not to work on the wrong camera! If you are lucky enough to have classic camera fairs nearby, they can be a good source for extra ones, but bring your camera with you.
Some models did come with rangefinders, similar to the 4x5 press cameras (the non-cammed RF type). Just about all come with a distance scale, so you can shoot "guess focus", or buy an accessory rangefinder. I've shot a few sheets using the focus scale, and it works well enough.
I develop my sheets in a Paterson Orbital, but have used the "taco method" in the past.
The 9x12cm folders can be quite small, especially compared to a more modern 4x5 or even DSLR. The KW Patent Etui is particularly compact. My ZEH Zeca is no heavier than my 6x6 CRF folders. The heavy bits are the metal film holders, especially when they have glass plates in them.
Since 9x12cm film is still relatively easy to get, you're better of sticking with it. Unless of course you want to shoot colour slides, then it does become more challenging, and it confuses the film lab when the note about it being 9x12 falls off
Whatever you get, make sure it comes with at least a couple of holders. There are numerous types of holder, all different enough not to work on the wrong camera! If you are lucky enough to have classic camera fairs nearby, they can be a good source for extra ones, but bring your camera with you.
Some models did come with rangefinders, similar to the 4x5 press cameras (the non-cammed RF type). Just about all come with a distance scale, so you can shoot "guess focus", or buy an accessory rangefinder. I've shot a few sheets using the focus scale, and it works well enough.
I develop my sheets in a Paterson Orbital, but have used the "taco method" in the past.
Frank Petronio
Well-known
Good working models are nice but finding enough good film holders that are compatible are the main problem. If it is convenient and easy to use then the logic is that you will shoot more film too, so you would want at least five to start.
They really are completely different from 4x5 cameras, think of them as over-sized 6x9 folders instead anything like a popular 4x5.
From a very practical point-of-view, even though they are only "half", a good 6x9 120 folder is a much friendlier and capable camera, especially with modern films and techniques. You really have to want to use a 9x12 because you are "odd".
They really are completely different from 4x5 cameras, think of them as over-sized 6x9 folders instead anything like a popular 4x5.
From a very practical point-of-view, even though they are only "half", a good 6x9 120 folder is a much friendlier and capable camera, especially with modern films and techniques. You really have to want to use a 9x12 because you are "odd".
jnoir
Well-known
P C Healand said:
Some holders are compatible between cameras (e.g. some Ikon and Voigtlander holders), but others are not (e.g. Patent Etui holders). Also, they were prepared for glass plates, so Thomas you may also look for film sheats, which are inserts to keep film in place and focused. Stay away of "filmpack" holders, they were intended for special packs of 12 sheets but they are no longer produced, and they are mostly useless (you can do something to adapt them as single sheet holders, however they are about three times the size of a regular holder...)
That's a good advice, unless you do lots of architecture photography and e.g. want / need / like tilt & shift movements. Or unless you want to experiment with coating plates with your own emulsion. Or unless you want to experiment with alternative processes and contact printing... I can see several benefits for using 9x12 over 6x9.
However, your advice is good since not everybody will use those features
oftheherd
Veteran
I have and use 9x12 folders. I would guess you might be able to adapt 4x5 film holders, but I don't think it would be a lot of fun. But you've got me thinking.
You do want to look for one that comes with cut film holders that fit or be sure you can get cut film holders. A 6x9 back is also a good investment. I have a couple and use them on occasion. Getting film holders or 6x9 backs can be a challenge. Sometimes you just have to buy and hope. If they are being sold separately, at least be sure they have the film sheaths. Film sheaths by themselves are even harder to procure than the backs. Backs also have different ways of loading the film. You may have to try a little to find out which way any one works. It's loads of fun when you have two or three different ones to load at the same time. Light tightness may be a problem as well, so sometimes the felt will need to be replaced.
Some 9x12 are heavier than others. I understand the Patent Etui is very light. It looks like it would be. VAGs are heavier, Zecas are not as heavy as VAGs. Any with a RF are going to be heavier. They are also going to be more expensive. The RF may or may not work. I have some on which they don't, and I haven't had the time to work on them. Zone focusing usually does, and certainly ground glass focusing works (make sure any you buy have a good ground glass).
Also ensure the GG back closes and latches, or pay less. Make sure any you buy have a working infinity stop. Ensure the front standard is tight and that the front opens, closes, and latches properly. Ensure it has a brightline finder, and a wire finder on the front, with its rear portion on the camera body. Many times these have been taken off for parts. Be sure the wire finder isn't broken. You may have to buy an adapter for the tripod mount. Many are the larger, not the 1/4 inch. Adapters are only about 3 to 5 dollars from Freestyle and others.
Most have rise and fall on the front standard. Many have shift. A very few have tilt. Fewer have interchangable lenses. I have one in 9x12 and one in 6x9. I have yet to find a lens other than the normal for their format.
Normally you can find aux lenses for telephoto and wide angle. They will no doubt reduce resolution a little, but shouldn't a lot, and you do have LF in the 9x12. You can also get filters for them.
All in all, I like the 9x12 format. There are some films you can buy, and you can cut down any 4x5 film available for use in the 9x12 holder. They are smaller than 4x5 RFs, and lighter, except for the cut film holders, Metal holders do add weight quickly. 3 to 5 working holders will probably do you, especially if you get a roll film back. I have over 20, but would never carry them all unless going on an extended trip. That might be handier than keeping track of what ASA sheet film I had unloaded with a changing bag.
You can develop in a tray, just like 4x5, and as you have read above, other methods work as well. Printing will require a 9x12 holder, or a home-made insert for a 4x5 holder. The same for scanning. For my Epson, I acquired some heavy plastic about the thickness of a 4x5 sheet, and cut to fit the 4x5 holder. Cluszy, but workable.
Hope that answers some of your questions.
EDIT: I forgot to mention shutters and lenses. Lenses are usually easy to clean if they are just dirty, not scratched. Shutters will often need cleaning. I haven't tried the Compur shutters rim set yet, but will some day. The dial set seem easier to clean. Ibsor are very easy to clean with a little care. Some day I intend to put up a thread on cleaing them. If there are bad springs, as long as you have the original, even if broken, you can probably get a good replacement. Mostly, just a good cleaning in naptha will bring them back to life. The Ibsor will need a little (very little) grease after the naptha bath.
Also, if you buy off the 'net, make sure the seller will stand behind his description, which must include the good state of the bellows.
You do want to look for one that comes with cut film holders that fit or be sure you can get cut film holders. A 6x9 back is also a good investment. I have a couple and use them on occasion. Getting film holders or 6x9 backs can be a challenge. Sometimes you just have to buy and hope. If they are being sold separately, at least be sure they have the film sheaths. Film sheaths by themselves are even harder to procure than the backs. Backs also have different ways of loading the film. You may have to try a little to find out which way any one works. It's loads of fun when you have two or three different ones to load at the same time.
Light tightness may be a problem as well, so sometimes the felt will need to be replaced.Some 9x12 are heavier than others. I understand the Patent Etui is very light. It looks like it would be. VAGs are heavier, Zecas are not as heavy as VAGs. Any with a RF are going to be heavier. They are also going to be more expensive. The RF may or may not work. I have some on which they don't, and I haven't had the time to work on them. Zone focusing usually does, and certainly ground glass focusing works (make sure any you buy have a good ground glass).
Also ensure the GG back closes and latches, or pay less. Make sure any you buy have a working infinity stop. Ensure the front standard is tight and that the front opens, closes, and latches properly. Ensure it has a brightline finder, and a wire finder on the front, with its rear portion on the camera body. Many times these have been taken off for parts. Be sure the wire finder isn't broken. You may have to buy an adapter for the tripod mount. Many are the larger, not the 1/4 inch. Adapters are only about 3 to 5 dollars from Freestyle and others.
Most have rise and fall on the front standard. Many have shift. A very few have tilt. Fewer have interchangable lenses. I have one in 9x12 and one in 6x9. I have yet to find a lens other than the normal for their format.
Normally you can find aux lenses for telephoto and wide angle. They will no doubt reduce resolution a little, but shouldn't a lot, and you do have LF in the 9x12. You can also get filters for them.
All in all, I like the 9x12 format. There are some films you can buy, and you can cut down any 4x5 film available for use in the 9x12 holder. They are smaller than 4x5 RFs, and lighter, except for the cut film holders, Metal holders do add weight quickly. 3 to 5 working holders will probably do you, especially if you get a roll film back. I have over 20, but would never carry them all unless going on an extended trip. That might be handier than keeping track of what ASA sheet film I had unloaded with a changing bag.
You can develop in a tray, just like 4x5, and as you have read above, other methods work as well. Printing will require a 9x12 holder, or a home-made insert for a 4x5 holder. The same for scanning. For my Epson, I acquired some heavy plastic about the thickness of a 4x5 sheet, and cut to fit the 4x5 holder. Cluszy, but workable.
Hope that answers some of your questions.
EDIT: I forgot to mention shutters and lenses. Lenses are usually easy to clean if they are just dirty, not scratched. Shutters will often need cleaning. I haven't tried the Compur shutters rim set yet, but will some day. The dial set seem easier to clean. Ibsor are very easy to clean with a little care. Some day I intend to put up a thread on cleaing them. If there are bad springs, as long as you have the original, even if broken, you can probably get a good replacement. Mostly, just a good cleaning in naptha will bring them back to life. The Ibsor will need a little (very little) grease after the naptha bath.
Also, if you buy off the 'net, make sure the seller will stand behind his description, which must include the good state of the bellows.
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Thomas-Paris
Member
Wow, thank you for all the replies! You guys have given me a lot to think about.
My main motivations for getting into LF in general are the obvious ones: larger negatives, and camera movements. 4x5 seems like a good solution for a view camera. I could still do small tank development at home, and I have access to enlargers that can go up to 4x5. Contact prints will be perfectly usable to evaluate what shots I want to do more work on; and I can picture myself lugging around the needed equipment (which is not the case for 8x10).
What I can't see myself doing is throwing a 4x5 view camera in a bag to bring along on a weekend bike ride. The KW Etui or one of the Voigtländer 9x12s would give me that, and I'd still have enough movements (front rise, at a minimum) to do a better job capturing the old castles and churches. And I love the 3:4 aspect ratio. Something the size and weight of the Etui but with a 10 or 12 cm lens would be ideal, but I guess I can't have everything.
I need to ask the lab I use for E6 if they could handle sheets cut down to 9x12, or if E6 would really require a masked 4x5 back. I'm more interested in B&W prints, but I like color from time to time, too.
Thanks for all the shopping advice, oftheherd. I think I'll go to our LF store here in Paris with that in mind, and see what they have, and maybe also look at what I can get from Germany, by post or in person.
My main motivations for getting into LF in general are the obvious ones: larger negatives, and camera movements. 4x5 seems like a good solution for a view camera. I could still do small tank development at home, and I have access to enlargers that can go up to 4x5. Contact prints will be perfectly usable to evaluate what shots I want to do more work on; and I can picture myself lugging around the needed equipment (which is not the case for 8x10).
What I can't see myself doing is throwing a 4x5 view camera in a bag to bring along on a weekend bike ride. The KW Etui or one of the Voigtländer 9x12s would give me that, and I'd still have enough movements (front rise, at a minimum) to do a better job capturing the old castles and churches. And I love the 3:4 aspect ratio. Something the size and weight of the Etui but with a 10 or 12 cm lens would be ideal, but I guess I can't have everything.
I need to ask the lab I use for E6 if they could handle sheets cut down to 9x12, or if E6 would really require a masked 4x5 back. I'm more interested in B&W prints, but I like color from time to time, too.
Thanks for all the shopping advice, oftheherd. I think I'll go to our LF store here in Paris with that in mind, and see what they have, and maybe also look at what I can get from Germany, by post or in person.
oftheherd
Veteran
If any advice I give is helpful, I am happy. It occurs to me I forgot to mention many 9x12 have double bellows extention built in, but not all. If that is important to you, be sure you buy a model that does that.
I agree on a view camera as a bike trip camera. For a day trip, if you are in good shape, you can make it work. There was a young lad on PopPhoto a few years ago that used to take weekend trips into the mountains with an 8x10 view camera. That's not something I would like to do. But a 9x12 is nearly a 4x5, and is much easier to carry and use. You can scale focus, RF focus if you have that, or focus on the GG. Framing can be done with the GG of course, but also the wire frame or the brightline finder. GG is most accurate, but the others only need a little checking with the GG to know what compensation is needed.
The only problem with 9x12, is the mention it has been getting on some of the forums, like here, little that it is, it is driving the ebay prices up. I don't know if it is also driving sales up, but the asking prices are kind of ridiculous. I have bought 9x12 RF in good working order, with 2 to 5 film holders with sheaths, for as little as $40 to $50 2 to 3 years ago. That isn't so easy now. Anything below $100 is probably OK if it is in good working order, RF or not, as long as it comes with cut film holders. Just the film pack holder is not good. That is not usable.
I know nothing about FSU 9x12. I do see them on ebay from time to time, but don't want one. My personal favorites are VAGs with Skopar lenses and ibsor shutters, or Kodak German made with compur shutters. The compur with rim set speeds really seem to hold up well, but a good Ibsor shutter is fine as well. That isn't to say others aren't good cameras. Most all are fine picture takers, but my preference is for the VAGs and Kodaks with workable RF. The Kodaks are a little heavier, but nice. The VAG with RF is really nice.
I agree on a view camera as a bike trip camera. For a day trip, if you are in good shape, you can make it work. There was a young lad on PopPhoto a few years ago that used to take weekend trips into the mountains with an 8x10 view camera. That's not something I would like to do. But a 9x12 is nearly a 4x5, and is much easier to carry and use. You can scale focus, RF focus if you have that, or focus on the GG. Framing can be done with the GG of course, but also the wire frame or the brightline finder. GG is most accurate, but the others only need a little checking with the GG to know what compensation is needed.
The only problem with 9x12, is the mention it has been getting on some of the forums, like here, little that it is, it is driving the ebay prices up. I don't know if it is also driving sales up, but the asking prices are kind of ridiculous. I have bought 9x12 RF in good working order, with 2 to 5 film holders with sheaths, for as little as $40 to $50 2 to 3 years ago. That isn't so easy now. Anything below $100 is probably OK if it is in good working order, RF or not, as long as it comes with cut film holders. Just the film pack holder is not good. That is not usable.
I know nothing about FSU 9x12. I do see them on ebay from time to time, but don't want one. My personal favorites are VAGs with Skopar lenses and ibsor shutters, or Kodak German made with compur shutters. The compur with rim set speeds really seem to hold up well, but a good Ibsor shutter is fine as well. That isn't to say others aren't good cameras. Most all are fine picture takers, but my preference is for the VAGs and Kodaks with workable RF. The Kodaks are a little heavier, but nice. The VAG with RF is really nice.
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jnoir
Well-known
Hopefully that's a good thing
Actually, two of the several KW Patent Etuis that I own have a Tessar 120mm lens, however those are for 6.5x9cm. Maybe it covers 9x12? I don't know, have not tried. A bit hard to come by one of those, but they do exist. In 9x12 there are a few with 150mm lens, instead of the 135mm standard lens, but they are even harder to find (at least, from my experience).