Thinking about buying a M8 and would like some advice

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Gawain Hewitt

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Hello all, i have previously posted this on dpreview (yesterday) and got some good advice from there, but having found you felt there may be more valid opinions here too. I hope you don't mind.

I have found a reasonably priced M8 second hand and am considering moving to Rangefinder. The primary reason would be to change the experience of photographing. To be honest it doesn’t really stack up rationally as my DSLR is much better in low light, weather sealed and I have lovely Zeiss lenses, which are very good, but I enjoy taking pictures with my Sigma DP1 much much more than my SLR and figure that a rangefinder would really work for me. I value discretion, bright viewfinder with long DOF and quiet shutter (and the look of a rangefinder is very cool... ;-)). I also find that carrying an SLR puts a lot of psychological baggage into the process, suddenly i'm "the photographer" which effects me and the subject matter. The problem is I also value working at high iso (can work at 1600 easily now, 3200 at a push) so I wondered if you could give your views on the following.
High iso on m8 – I understand not great, but I do a lot of available light work in nightclubs and at night. I do have and use noise ninja also. Does anyone have any tips on how to get the best out of m8 in very low light. Would downsizing high iso images make a big difference to noise, and if so is there a special way to do this?
Lens choice – I am a bit ignorant as to the viewfinder of an m8 and how it corrosponds with different lenses. What is the widest lens I can use without an external viewfinder? Also I have the option to buy a mint Bessa R2m with 5 lenses (mint) including 2 x 35mm, f1.5 50mm, 70mm and 90mm for £700 against a 35mm 1.4 leica second hand for £700 or a new f3.5 leica lens – the voigtlander route seems very good value, but it seems a bit disingenuous to spend £1700 on a body to use with cheaper lenses – what do people feel on these?
Other than that I would appreciate some general thoughts on M8 ownership, for example how does it feel carting a £2000 camera around (nervous?) is it reliable? I presume people are insuring their cameras? Rangefinder need tweaking regularly? Any bugs I may need to know about?
Many thanks for your time

Gawain
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The thing is my head says if I'm going to spend that much then buy a D700 with a Zeiss 50mm, or keep my Samsung GX20 with Zeiss 35mm. However my recent experience with my DP1 suggests that actually the right camera is more important than the spec, having a tool, however flawed, that I feel comfortable with.
I like Sean Reids new article on equipment, that's the kind of area he's in...
 
Buying an M8 without a warranty seems a more uncertain experience than with Canon or Nikon DSLR's. Beyond that, though, why not just buy it, try it, and if it doesn't work out, sell it and consider the loss a rental fee. RF's are a very different experience than a DSLR or P&S. You need to try it yourself.
 
You have some quite exacting requirements. The only sensible solution is to try and borrow it and see how you get on. If you are seriously interested in purchase, I would think most Leica dealears would be prepared to do this.

Richard
 
The best advice I can give you on the M8 -

1) Get your lenses (all 35mm and below) 6-bit coded (there are self coding kits available for not much money);
2) Use IR/CUT filters (do not stack them on current filters, if any).

Do these two things and you will eliminate a myriad of negative M8 experiences. But just as important -

3) Do not buy an M8 without a warranty (even a good in-store warranty will suffice).

If at all possible, try before buying - the M8 is not for everyone.

As to the use of "after market" lenses – IMHO, they are fine. CV lenses give you an inexpensive option over both Zeiss and Leica. The Zeiss lenses are respectable and rival Leica quality at about a third the price.

Unless for some reason you like noise over losing the shot altogether, the best option for low-light photography with the M8 is to use faster lenses. I don't shoot mine above ISO 640.
 
i say, give it a test whirl and see if you like the experience of shooting with an RF.
As far as high ISO performance on the m8...99.99% of the crying is so far over-exaggerated it's just funny at this point. It's not top of the class in high ISO performance but it ain't far behind.
The only way to know for sure is to just go out and try it.
 
cirque said:
... As for wide lenses, the M8 has 24mm framelines (if I remember correctly)...
Click to expand...

This is correct - 24 x 1.33:1 crop factor = 32mm equivalent.

BTW, the best "walk-about" lens choice on the M8 is the, now discontinued, Tri-Elmar (28/50/35), but they are getting hard to find - and they're astronomically expensive when you do find them.
 
Thanks to all for responses this is very helpful. Yes the camera I am looking at has a 1 year dealer warranty which gives me some peace of mind. I will try and get a proper lend of it before I buy if possible.
Seasons greetings to all!
 
Every succeeding generation of camera that Nikon or Canon introduces, the internet forums light up with "proof" that the old sensor in the M8 bests them in all areas. I've seen big prints from the newest high end Nikon and Camera cameras. They are stunning. I guess there are those vested in the Leica M8 who will always make those claims of their camera's superiority over everything. Too bad the miracle M8 isn't selling very well.
 
Again thanks all for input, a good balance of opinion out there. Yes it is a lot of money for me, and it isn't sounding like it will benefit me enough, as i already have a lot invested in another system with some nice glass (pentax limiteds and Zeiss PK's). Appreciating it's many shortcomings the Sigma DP1 is rocking my world as a take everywhere camera at the moment. I am using it like my old Rollei 35, manual focus ("guess focus"), manual exposure, getting a lot of shots i wouldnt normally get. Will go and speak to dealer about a hire/lend of an m8 tomorrow, but warming to the idea of being happy with what i've got!
Thanks again
Gawain
 
I still think the main appeal of the M8 is a logical progression for film M users who have already Leica glass and want a digital option. Your photography does not seem to have ever needed a film M and so this really would be a new venture.

Do let us know how you get on with a test drive.

Richard
 
Fred Burton said:
Every succeeding generation of camera that Nikon or Canon introduces, the internet forums light up with "proof" that the old sensor in the M8 bests them in all areas. I've seen big prints from the newest high end Nikon and Camera cameras. They are stunning. I guess there are those vested in the Leica M8 who will always make those claims of their camera's superiority over everything. Too bad the miracle M8 isn't selling very well.
Click to expand...
:confused:I really wonder which threads on which forums you are referring to.I did not see them. It is utterly of no interest to a rangefinder user to compare to a DSLR. I'll gladly concede to the high quality of file cooking by the newest Nikon and Canon offerings at amazing ISO, and to the stunning resolution which far exceeds any of the lenses that match to those cameras. But then I happily put my Nokton 1.2/35 on my M8 and proceed to take photographs, as opposed to technically perfect reproductions....
 
Gawain Hewitt said:
Lens choice – I am a bit ignorant as to the viewfinder of an m8 and how it corrosponds with different lenses. What is the widest lens I can use without an external viewfinder?
...the voigtlander route seems very good value, but it seems a bit disingenuous to spend £1700 on a body to use with cheaper lenses – what do people feel on these?
Other than that I would appreciate some general thoughts on M8 ownership, for example how does it feel carting a £2000 camera around (nervous?) is it reliable? I presume people are insuring their cameras? Rangefinder need tweaking regularly?
Click to expand...
Hi Gawain, I'm sure you're finding lots of threads about the M8 with varying opinions and experiences...

RF needs no tweaking, as may be the case with some Voigtlanders (though mine have been fine in that regard). My household insurance covers my camera gear, even when traveling; I have no special coverage. I've found the M8s reliable, though with an electronic instrument there's always a bit of concern about mysterious software/hardware glitches, the moreso with more complicated gear.

I have no qualms traveling with the Leica M8. It's relatively inconspicuous, and as long as one doesn't leave it foolishly vulnerable it's not likely to disappear. Probably as vulnerable to impact damage as any other Leica M, i.e., not very.

As said, the M8 largely appeals to those with film M gear experience. A migration to RF from SLR is a big step that may not be happy or comfortable. Might consider a film Voiglander Bessa R/2/3/4 to see how you get on with the RF concept.

Zeiss and Voigtlander lenses are fine bargains, and fine optics too, but there's still the wisdom of 6-bit coding and IR cut filters. The M8 viewfinder has six viewfinder framelines that appear in pairs (typical of Leica M in general); the M8's are 24/35, 28/90, and 50/75. Framelines are automatically selected when mounting a lens on Leica M, Konica Hexar RF, Minolta CLE, and Zeiss Ikon bodies, the Bessas having manually-selected frames.

Welcome and enjoy!
 
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hi Gawain - I sold my 5D and fully migrated to a RFs. I also have the DP1.

If you enjoy the DP1, a RF can be more fun once you get over the learning curve - and there is a learning curve. Like you, I absolutely love the fact I now carry a carry with me nearly everyday. That alone is worth moving to a RF system.

I have kept my canon lens because there are still situations where i prefer a dslr eg. weddings, work event, flash etc...on those times, i intend to borrow friend's body. I could not afford to keep my 5d, otherwise i would. As good as a RF is, it is not a slr and there are times those are better.

As for lens - Zeiss are equal to leica from what I read although different. CV are a good entry point and they do have lens that are unique that even Leica don't make. So I would not discount either range.

I'm in London - if I can help, feel free to ping me a message. Or you could always consider my Hexar AF that's for sale. Bargain pre-asph Summicron with a body as lens cap. ; )
 
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Well went in shop today and had a look at a few things. The m8 had a feel on and it's a nice thing, but i don't feel enough of a pull to it to justify the money i don't think. I did have a good play with a CL with a 40mm f2 on it which is £500 with 6 months guarantee and I am quite tempted to get it to try out Rangefinders and Leica's.
It's funny, i really like the pictures my Samsung takes, but I really don't like using it. I experimented with carrying it home around my neck today with a pancake 40mm on it (i normally carry my Sigma) and it did feel incomfortable. However as I just said, the pictures I make with it can be really beautiful, and as that is the end point and I have a Sigma which i do enjoy everyday it seems sensible to stick with what I have...
I will think on the CL - it seems like a good option to scratch my itch.
 
Gawain Hewitt said:
Well went in shop today and had a look at a few things. The m8 had a feel on and it's a nice thing, but i don't feel enough of a pull to it to justify the money i don't think. I did have a good play with a CL with a 40mm f2 on it which is £500 with 6 months guarantee and I am quite tempted to get it to try out Rangefinders and Leica's.
It's funny, i really like the pictures my Samsung takes, but I really don't like using it. I experimented with carrying it home around my neck today with a pancake 40mm on it (i normally carry my Sigma) and it did feel incomfortable. However as I just said, the pictures I make with it can be really beautiful, and as that is the end point and I have a Sigma which i do enjoy everyday it seems sensible to stick with what I have...
I will think on the CL - it seems like a good option to scratch my itch.
Click to expand...

Dear Gawain

You simply have to try out the camera and take some pictures and report back. This really is all that matters. You should be looking at the clearness of the viewfinder, how accurately you can focus, how easy it is to compose images, how simply you can control depth of field, how slow you can hand hold it, distinctive properties of rangefinder optics, and make some sort of evaluation in comparison to your current system and chosen subjects, but most importantly of all take some pictures on your own SD card. Take them home and give them an objective evaluation. The appeal of the rangefinder really for me is to do with how one composes and the fact that the focusing patch forces you to define a precise focal point and consider depth of field either side of it. This is the attraction, but there is no way you can get this from a stroking session.

Richard
 
You're completely right, in fact I feel that I would probably need a week or more to begin to get my head around whether it was right for me.
Once again thanks for your time and merry christmas!
 
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