Thinking about buying M8

[conradyiu]

I have been using R-D1 for years and happy with it. Today, found a used M8 (or 8.2? not sure) in quite a fair price and it's compactness attracts me.

Searching in RFF about M8 thread, understood there is a IR issue and we should use IR filter for all lens; shutter loudness, high iso noise, not-so-good jpeg image so RAW seems a must, etc are also quite a problems with the M8.

Except from the above, should there any problems with it, just want to hear from you as I would like to sell the R-D1 to finance a used M8 or 8.2.

BTW, I used Canon, Nikkor, CV LTM lens and some cheap FSU lens rather than expensive Leica lens.

 

[Glass Addict]

Easy way to tell the difference between M8 vs. M8.2 is to see whether there is 1/8000s shutter speed. If it does, then it's M8, if it does not, then M8u or M8.2.
There quite a price difference between M8 and M8.2 so it might be wise for you to do some research on their differences.
What you said about M8 are all true, but I've found B&W jpeg's to be pretty good. I hardly ever use jpeg files to begin with, but if I do, it's B&W.

There have been problems with 1 pixel thick vertical lines appearing at higher ISO's.

BTW, I have M8.2 and it's a great little camera.

 

[LCT]

....Searching in RFF about M8 thread, understood there is a IR issue and we should use IR filter for all lens; shutter loudness, high iso noise, not-so-good jpeg image so RAW seems a must, etc are also quite a problems with the M8. Except from the above, should there any problems with it, just want to hear from you as I would like to sell the R-D1 to finance a used M8 or 8.2...

Old R-D1 user here since 2004. The M8 (M8.2 for me) is essentially a wide camera in that its VF magnification is 0.68x instead of 1:1 for the R-D1. Sort of M2 vs M3 where the latter would be almost as big as an M5 if you know a bit those old Leicas. So different beasts from this viewpoint.
Shooting both eyes open is a pleasure with the R-D1's. 28, 35 and 50mm frame lines are larger as well with the latter. But the 28mm frame lines are wider and more comfortable with the M8 and it is easier to guestimate 21mm frame with the latter.
Otherwise IR-cut filters are mandatory with the M8 instead of using them from time to time (essentially in tungsten mode) with the Epsons.
The lack of AA filter allows for less sharpening in PP with the M8 but produces more moiré than with the Epsons.
The sensor microlenses of the M8 are much better than those of the R-D1's. Vignetting is not a problem at all with the Skopar 21/4 for instance. But coding of the latter is mandatory to avoid cyan shifts when using IR-cut filters.
Shutter noise is quieter with the M8.2 but its winder noise is significantly louder than the manual cocking of the Epsons. The Leica's discreet mode allows to postpone winder noise but it is just a pis aller.
Digital noise looks dirtier at 640 iso with the M8 than at 800 iso with the Epsons, at least in raw mode with Capture One v4. Epson's jpegs are noisier than Leica's though.
The manual controls of the R-D1's are superior. No need to chimp to change iso contrary to the M8. Now 640 iso looks so noisy with the latter that i use only 160 and 320 in auto iso mode which avoids higher isos w/o chimping.
A firmware update is pending for the M8 and will perhaps reduce digital noise but Leica didn't say anything about that.
Ergonomics of the Epsons are almost perfect vs M8 alone feeling slippery like a soap bar, but accessories like Thumbs up render it better balance and much more handy.
Third party batteries are not a problem with the R-D1's contrary to M8 and M8.2. They work just fine with the Leicas but the battery meter of the latters does not recognize them so that you will have to do full discharges (until the camera stops) and recharges if you need accurate metering. Genuine Leica batteries are very expensive (USD 130) as one can expect.
M8 vs M8.2 wise, the frame lines of the latter are more accurate at 2 meters (great for portrait), the M8.2 shutter/winder noise is quieter and its sapphire LCD is less a luxury than a security. The M8 shutter speeds are faster though (1/8000 vs 1/4000s).

 

[user237428934]

At my first try with the M8 I always compared the output with a dslr and was always disappointed and sold it. At that point I thought ISO 320 is the best you can seriously use. After one year without it, I bought one again. In the meantime I also began developing film with scanning and digital printing. This definitely cures you from looking at digital files at 100% and concentrate more on the print output. With that in mind I use ISO 640 without even thinking about it or 1250 when I really need it.
JPG files are good in bw mode. With that I use ISO 1250 or even 2500 at night.
At the moment I use the M8 more often than my DSLR.

 

[Photon42]

Very nice write-up, LCT. I have no experience at all with the Epson, so certainly an interesting read for me as well.

[...]
The manual controls of the R-D1's are superior. No need to chimp to change iso contrary to the M8. Now 640 iso looks so noisy with the latter that i use only 160 and 320 in auto iso mode which avoids higher isos w/o chimping.
A firmware update is pending for the M8 and will perhaps reduce digital noise but Leica didn't say anything about that.
Ergonomics of the Epsons are almost perfect vs M8 alone feeling slippery like a soap bar, but accessories like Thumbs up render it better balance and much more handy.
[...]

My personal experience with the M8 and LR3 is, that ISO 640 is no issue at all and very well usable. I only use ISO 1250 in BW, however.

The ergonomics of the M8 suffer indeed a bit from the fact that they did not find a ISO adjustment solution which complies to their idea of design (which I find quite attractive).

The soap bar behavior can be worked on with an additional grip. I do use the one from ReallyRightStuff - allowing also quick mounting on a tripod to avoid high ISOs

Regards

Ivo

 

[Jodorowsky]

At my first try with the M8 I always compared the output with a dslr and was always disappointed and sold it. At that point I thought ISO 320 is the best you can seriously use. After one year without it, I bought one again. In the meantime I also began developing film with scanning and digital printing. This definitely cures you from looking at digital files at 100% and concentrate more on the print output. With that in mind I use ISO 640 without even thinking about it or 1250 when I really need it.
JPG files are good in bw mode. With that I use ISO 1250 or even 2500 at night.
At the moment I use the M8 more often than my DSLR.

Why must you say these things at such a delicate time in my life? The M8 is a good camera; there are so many misperceptions about it, and all brewed and concocted on the internet. I'm selling mine to try a different kind of photography, but there's no way I'd 'replace' it with anything less than full frame. If I'm going to lose the utter brilliance, convenience and simplicity of the M8 for digital, i have to buy an £1800 camera new, because, at the very least, I may need to sell again and repurchase the M8 (and that doesn't make me an idiot or a spendthrift....)

 

[conradyiu]

Thanks folks !
Now I know more about the problems of M8, battery, 0.68X (big issue to me as my eyes seems not so good). Would like to know any more issue if I used only LTM lens on M8?
Thanks !

 

[LCT]

...0.68X (big issue to me as my eyes seems not so good). Would like to know any more issue if I used only LTM lens on M8?...

A good eyepiece correction lens will help. You might also consider the purchase of a magnifier if need be. LTM lenses can be used with the M8 but you'll have to code the adapter, mainly if your LTMs are wides.

 

[jarski]

been using my M8 about a year without need for accessorizing. mine came with grip, but chose to use it plain vanilla instead. well, Zhou half case is nice to have during travels.

when looking results of some lens I dont have IR-cut filter for, am often wondering why those things are so "must have". its maybe 1-5% of my photos when the IR-contamination is even noticeable. but, am using cut filters in my most commonly used lenses. would be using some filter on lens anyways...

been using mainly RAW, and B&W jpegs, but didn't notice issues with color jpegs. like others posted, ISO640 is my limit with color files. above that only on emergency or B&W.

 

[Sonnar Brian]

1956 KMZ Jupiter-3 on the M8, wide-open, ISO 1250. In camera JPEG.

ISO 2500, Nikkor 8.5cm F2, in -camera JPEG.

Lately, I've been shooting RAW with Lightroom 3.3. I will be revisiting ISO 2500.

 

[JayM]

When I first got the M8 I was disappointed at how it felt in the hand compared to the RD1.

Now I wrap the neck strap in a way that lets me hold tension with my thumb very similar to how I'd imagine a thumbs up works. This has really helped with the overall feel of the camera. The dials and buttons on the back still annoy me compared to the RD1, but in a minor way.

I would sell my newer SLR gear to finance an M8 before I'd sell the RD1.

Actually, I am selling my SLR gear for just that reason

 

[Lss]

640 iso looks so noisy with the latter that i use only 160 and 320 in auto iso mode which avoids higher isos w/o chimping.

I guess this depends on the cropping and print sizes you need, but I go happily to ISO 1250. Going to 2500 usually means that light is scarce (may need to underexpose to get good shutter speeds) and often artificial (which doesn't help with the look), so at ISO 2500 I only expect to get usable B&W.

Here's one at ISO "5000" (1250 pushed two stops). The file is small and doesn't prove much, but the print quality is nice.

 

[peterm1]

Thanks folks !
Now I know more about the problems of M8, battery, 0.68X (big issue to me as my eyes seems not so good). Would like to know any more issue if I used only LTM lens on M8?
Thanks !

Yes I struggle a bit with focussing on this camera. I have a VF magnifier bought on eBay (around $60) and that helps a bit but I need a diopter adjustment lens to really do the trick. For now I make do with a pair of cheap chemist shop non prescription reading glasses of the correct diopter (which is diferent from my prescription glasses which are corrected for reading at closer range - the Leica finder approximates an image at 2 meters.) The advantage with this is that you can try different diopters till you find one that works simply by going to the store and testing them by looking thru the finder and focussing till you find one that works for you.

So you could try that and I suspect it would help. (It helped me.)

Of course the problem is greater with longer lenses and if you have a tendancy to shoot wide open (which I do quite a bit.)

Incidentally many of the things said about the eica M8 are exaggerated. Not the dodgey ISO handling and IR issue sadly but things like shutter noise are a tad overstated - these pronouncements are made by comparison with film Leicas and here the M8 does fall short slightly but its not major in the overall scheme of things.

The need to shoot RAW is not a problem for most people I think. I certainly like the way the M8 renders by comaprison with say my Nikon D200. I have to do far less work in post processing to get good images from the M8.

 

[conradyiu]

Thanks Peter, you really made me feel comfortable to buy an used M8.
I will try to overcome the 0.68x problem.

 

[isorgb]

I have changed R-D1 to M8 one week ago.
M8 is better camera, sensor is different, really different. Camera is noticeably faster, what is important for me. I can click click click click
High ISO is good for me too. I heard that M8 is usable only to IS0 640, but I don't afraid about noise and now (after one week) I know that I will use ISO 1250 and 2500 even for colors. Pictures are sharp, crisp on all ISO values.

ISO 1250:

ISO 2500:

R-D1 has better body functioning, all settings on body, you can close LCD and forget about it. Change ISO, compensation for automatic exposure on M8 is available only by menu. I was afraid about compensation, I used most often automatic exposure on R-D1, but now I use full manual settings. Manual exposure is better, faster and more predictable. New camera, new experience
I don't know what I got with automatic exposure in this picture :

All pictures without IR cut filter. With filter pictures would be only better.

Summary, I don't regret. M8 is better than R-D1 for me. One thing, what I really miss. ISO wheel on body!
Don't forget about pixels. I think that more pixels always will be better. Who know when you will need bigger print or crop?

Cheers!