Thinking of RD-1 - is there a Mk2 or RD-2 imminent ?

[davidjt]

Thanks Again for your advice. I did handle one at Robert White's when they were first out and was very impressed. I am now quite content with 'here and now' (one exception was waiting for the D2X which drove me nuts) - anything 6mp and up is good enough for almost any needs. Its £2k ukp whichever way you look at it and if (big if) nearing the end of its product cycle is poor value if within 3-6mths a D2X from D2H leap came along - look at the price drop on a D2H just before announcement (I was there...). Once bitten !

I would probably be quicker to RWs if I hadnt read so much about QC issues - I am not lucky with such things....... but I expect that much of that has now been sorted out.

 

[ZeissFan]

I got the sense from talking with Hasselblad people that if Carl Zeiss AG does produce a digital rangefinder, 1) it won't be cheap, and 2) it will be full frame.

The lenses were designed for film and digital and for full frame.

I guess time will tell.

Personally, if I'm going to put down a couple of thousand for a digital camera, I want full frame. Not some crappy 1.6x crop factor.

 

[sevres_babylone]

Maybe if before buying my R-D1, I'd owned and/or used any RF lenses I used on it now, I might be put off by the lack of full-frame. But having bought my lenses afterwards, I simply think of (and use) my CV 35mm Pancake II as a 50mm lens, and my Nokton 50mm as a 75mm lens. I hope those waiting for a full-frame eventually get what they wish for, and that it comes in a compact package. In the meantime, I'm enjoying what I have.

 

[agoglanian]

Almost every digital camera has its inherent limitations and drawbacks, and sure very few of them give results that are close to film,

and if you think about it, the only camera right now that is full frame ( that works exceptionally well, the kodak blows) is the Canon 1Ds, However there is the 5D comin very very soon which will be a 13MP full frame camera.

What i'm getting at. is that - sure the 1.5x factor stinks, unless you work with it instead of against it, and yeah they may very well put out a full frame Digital RF, but it is also going to cost you your first born child and a couple organs. + some cash.

in this digital age, everything gets upgraded and outdated faster than you can say banana. ( lol sorry .. random.. ) but what we have , here, and now. is the R-D1. yeah you can wait. wait for the best one, but youre going to end up waiting forever because there will always be something newer, something fresher.

my vote is, if you can afford it right now, and you really are wanting to switch to digital, the r-d1 is a fantastic camera for what it is. I have shot a bunch of assignments for school with it, and it did everything i wanted it to do.

It is a great camera david, and to be perfectly honest, i dont think you would be dissappointed if you bought one.a

 

[Kevin]

Spend your money on one of those scanners that has a film-spool attachment. Then sleeve your slides in archival sheets. That should speed up your scanning time considerably.
When a newer better digital RF comes along that meets your photography needs AND takes care of your archiving demands, go for it then.

Kevin

 

[andyturk]

The 1.5x factor of the Epson really isn't bad at all if you stick a nice 21mm lens in front of it...

I took these two shots last night while walking around Chinatown in San Francisco.

 

[sgy1962]

I'm wondering upon what basis you can claim that "we know a digital M is coming out in a year or so". The road to the DMR has not been without issues and Leica continues to struggle. Despite the QC problems, which are certainly real (although I've been fine with both my R-D1s), the camera is not simply the "only game in town", it really does perform.

Leica has announced several times that the target date for the introduction of the digital M is next fall. That time frame has not been changed in any announcement. The DMR was 6-7 months late and Leica received much in the way of bad press, ect. for this delay. Since that time, however, Leica has new management, who have stressed the importance of getting products to the market in a timely manner. Add to this that Leica's financials have been corrected for the short term.

The R-D1 is the only digital rangefinder out there. There are many users who have reported that they have gone digital with this camera, soley because it was a rangefinder. If this camera was not a rangefinder, then it would not be very popular. This camera has bee selling for a year, and I don't think they have sold much more then half of the initial 10,000 units.

 

[sgy1962]

rephrase it to "we know a digital M is planned to come out in a year or so".

and the r-d1 is a great camera, assuming it's working well. you don't judge a camera by one that's broken, duh!

The epson R-D1 seems to have a high percentage of new cameras with QC problems. Just read the prior posts on this forum. I beleive there is even a thread dedicated to problems with this camera. And someone on one of these internet forums reported that someone from Epson at there service center said something to the effect that "we (Epson) can make great scanners/printer, why can't we make a good camera."

Add to that the very short rangefinder base; large crop facor for the lens; and the limited framelines, which detracts from the camera's useability and versatility.

The question was should I buy this camera now. And the answer, to me, is clearly no. With the second generation of digital rangefinders on the near horizon, which will clearly outclass the R-D1, it does not make sense, especially for an amateur, to invest alot of money into this camera, especially given its questionable QC issues. With the introduction of some competition (i.e., other digital rangefinders), the value of these cameras will drop substantially.

About the only reason to buy this camera is that if you want a digital rangefinder now.

 

[sgy1962]

I'm wondering upon what basis you can claim that "we know a digital M is coming out in a year or so". The road to the DMR has not been without issues and Leica continues to struggle. Despite the QC problems, which are certainly real (although I've been fine with both my R-D1s), the camera is not simply the "only game in town", it really does perform.

Let me also add that much of the groundwork for the digital M was done with the development of the DMR. Leica is not totally re-inventing the wheel with the digital M. this also will be an indication that this camera will be "on time."

I do recognize that the digital M is probably 1 1/2 year away from street availability.

If I wanted to go digital, then I would not be so keen on waiting if the DMR was not such a good peerformer. Leica may be expensive and not get their products to the market as fast as they should, but when they do they are generally excellent quality and performance, which folks are happy to live with for a very long time. Just look at all those folks who are using older Leica lenses and bodies, and feel no need to upgrade to the current, better Leica lenses or newer bodies. I do not believe that the same can be said for the Epson R-D1: When the competition finally arrives, I believe the second generation of digital rangefinders will be som much better, whether from Leica, Zeiss or the R-D2, that few of you will be content with the R-D1. And that's a better way to determine if you should buy this camera now; ask yourself will I be content with an R-D1 2-3 years from now in light of what is coming?

 

[davidjt]

SGY1962 has hit the nail on the head I think - that is the anxiety at the back of my mind. Just like the D100 was great, took published pictures etc but replaced as soon as 2nd generation came along. I can see myself happy (but for size) with the D2X for as long as it lasts which should be nearly forever with my level of serious amateur / semi pro usage. Digital technology is at a level of maturity where I expect to treat it like buying an M6 or an F3/FM2 - this is for keeps, not just a year. I dont feel that about the R-D1 right now.

 

[jlw]

SGY1962 has hit the nail on the head I think - that is the anxiety at the back of my mind. Just like the D100 was great, took published pictures etc but replaced as soon as 2nd generation came along.

And what it was replaced with (D70) has exactly the same sensor, basically the same electronics, reduced feature set (mirror prism instead of glass; can't take vertical grip; etc.) and produces almost identical results -- but costs Nikon less to make, sells in larger volume at the lower price, and thus is more profitable for the manufacturer, but provides no additional benefits to the consumer other than costing less.

Another way of looking at it: I bought a D100; I shot a lot of good pictures with it that I wouldn't have been able to shoot if I had been waiting, camera-less, for the "next generation" to arrive; and even now, it still shoots pictures that are just as good and still meet my needs. The fact that Nikon has introduced an "improved" camera has not magically degraded the quality of the results I get. The idea that a new model makes your current model obsolete is a scam carried over from the PC industry, where the vendors somehow have convinced buyers that even if your Pentium XIV worked great for you yesterday, you've got to replace it today because the Pentium XV just became available.

A camera store here used to have a cartoon under the glass on the counter; it showed a stubborn-looking old guy saying, "No, I don't have any pictures of my children, or my grandchildren either. I'm not wasting my money on a camera until they get done improving them."


Another thought about the dubious declaration that "the next generation of digital RFs is imminent": If the first generation (Epson) is a sales flop, no manufacturer on earth is going to risk bringing out a second generation in today's high-risk financial climate.

 

[Laki]

I do recognize that the digital M is probably 1 1/2 year away from street availability.

thats a long time to have fun with my rd-1 so if, leice ever produces a digital m, i can still add that one or switch, why wait so long if you can have fun with it today

 

[jlw]

Well, $3K is a lot of money, so I can understand wanting to be prudent.

All I'm saying is: Make your decision based on how well currently-available cameras meet your picture-taking wants and needs. If there's a camera available now that does what you want to do and with which you feel comfortable, go ahead and buy it. If not, keep your money in your pocket and wait until what you want becomes available.

Whether you decide to buy or not buy, though, base your decision ONLY on what works for you -- not on speciously-reasoned arguments or optimistic speculation.

Speaking of which, the discussion of possibly-coming-sometime-in-the-future-if-they-don't-go-broke-first digital RFs often sounds to me like this satirical news release from Britain's all-but-defunct MG Rover auto works, cribbed wholesale from viciously funny UK car website "Sniff Petrol":

Sources say the next part of the strategy is to issue really nice drawings of some cars. "People like really nice drawings of cars," our insider revealed. "And we are confident that we can deliver the really nice drawings that people want. Many have questioned our ability to make this work, but there is no question that we are committed to as many really nice drawings as the market demands. Meanwhile, we will also demonstrate our commitment to making up big numbers regarding the number of people we will re-employ. Whatever is required, we can make it up. If we are expected to claim that we will create 47 billion jobs, we have the capacity to make up that number". However, Longbridge spies say the most exciting aspect of Kerching's plan will come with a new building project. "We have already started construction," says our mole. "We are already putting together a massive pie, which will be located in the sky.​

Search/replace this text, substitute "cameras" for "cars," and it all sounds very familiara...

 

[aizan]

Add to that the very short rangefinder base; large crop facor for the lens; and the limited framelines, which detracts from the camera's useability and versatility.

You can't just write off the short rangefinder base as insufficient. You've got to look at what it's capable of. The longest lens the R-D1 has framelines for is 50mm(75mm equiv.). An EBL of 37mm can focus an effective 75/2, though it will probably have trouble consistently focusing a 75/1.4 closeup and wide open. Not a great loss. Shorter lenses have no focusing problems, though short lenses have problems with vignetting.

This is where the impact of the crop really comes in. Currently, the shortest lens that has manageable vignetting is the Leica 21mm ASPH (32mm equiv.). The Zeiss Ikon's lenses may be even better. With a 1:1 viewfinder, you would need an accessory viewfinder just like the R3a. If the viewfinder was reduced to .7x, then we could have built-in framelines, but then the EBL would go down. You might need to restrict yourself to f2.8, which is still not bad for a portrait lens, especially when the sensor gives you less noise.

An effective 32/2.8 to 75/2 range is good enough for me and a lot of other people. Some even go whole hog and put the 15mm Heliar on it. What do you want that the R-D1 is incapable of?

The question was should I buy this camera now. And the answer, to me, is clearly no. With the second generation of digital rangefinders on the near horizon, which will clearly outclass the R-D1, it does not make sense, especially for an amateur, to invest alot of money into this camera, especially given its questionable QC issues. With the introduction of some competition (i.e., other digital rangefinders), the value of these cameras will drop substantially.

I'm waiting, too, but you've got to admit the R-D1's capabilities. The QC issues aren't too bad. If you get a bum copy and have to exchange or repair it, it's only time and frustration we're talking about. Pros might have real complaints, but amateurs don't. Maybe you have to pay for shipping, or at worst, $100 to have DAG tweak the framelines or rangefinder. That sounds fine to me.

And doesn't all digital depreciate substantially and quickly become obsolete? You can't win that game.

 

[richard_l]

in this digital age, everything gets upgraded and outdated faster than you can say banana. ( lol sorry .. random.. ) but what we have , here, and now. is the R-D1. yeah you can wait. wait for the best one, but youre going to end up waiting forever because there will always be something newer, something fresher.

That's what bothers me most about digital: its constant state of flux. When to buy? One just has to take a leap of faith. Close your eyes, hold your nose, and jump in!

 

[Flinor]

I can't remember her name, but a female stand up comic once said, "I'm not buying anything electronic unless they guarantee that it's the last one."

This is probably old news and in the realm of wishful thinking, but Stephen Gandy posted to one of his forums a few weeks ago that an "industry insider", or someone with knowledge, told him that there are Konica Minolta digital Rf's being tested with at least one prototype with a full frame sensor. I'm passing on the rumor, but if any company would surprise us it would be KM. A Hexar D?

 

[jaapv]

There is no doubt that the RD1 is a great camera and I would buy a RD1 - if it had automatic framelines - if it had 135 mm framelines - if it had a larger measuring base and if there wasn't a strong possibilty of digital a Leica or Zeiss Ikon or even RD2 in the near future which will adress these points. To steal the analogy of another poster- yes, I would put off proposing to my current girlfriend if I knew Claudia Schiffer was staying with me for a few months in the near future

 

[pfogle]

To steal the analogy of another poster- yes, I would put off proposing to my current girlfriend if I knew Claudia Schiffer was staying with me for a few months in the near future

Have you told her that? Just kidding

 

[jaapv]

Have you told her that? Just kidding

Unfortunately Miss CS's visit is far more hypothetical than the digital Leica.......

 

[Donald Mann]

Hate to be an enabler . . . but my 35/2 Asph and R-D1 has been, for me, an awesome combination. . .

hee hee

Me too!