This is a rare item. Shall I bid? Advice please.

Yes, some have complained.....

Yes, some have complained.....

But apparently not to eBay, and I think that if there is a problem with Jurgen, he would be less likely to allow that to happen on eBay. I believe he values his feedback and has worked diligently to keep it at 99.8% over almost 4000 transaction.

I tend to break that down into real numbers. He's had 8 negative feedbacks out of 4000. Or on the other hand, he has had 3992 happy or satisfied transactions on eBay (yes, I rounded up to 4000)

Personally, I have had one excellent camera bought from Jurgen and another three repairs that went well, and were satisfying.

I can't speak to the rarity of the camera you are looking at, but the pictures look good. You have to make your own decision on it's collectability.

That then raises another issue. I would, from my experience, tend to trust Jurgen and the listing comments. Are you planning on actually shooting the camera, or is it a collector. If it's truly rare, how would it's value be affected if there were a minor problem in operation.

I hope I'm making a point here. First, the numbers weigh on Certo6's side. You're probably better off buying on eBay from Jurgen. Second, if the camera is not perfect (how old is it again?????) does it affect the purposes for which you want it?
Third, as long as it's complete and has enough value to you, would you mind correcting some differences of opinion about it's condition. Fourth if you have issues, simply ask Jurgen before the auction closes. (However, don't hide your email address from him as he states clearly in his listing).

I consider Jurgen an honorable man, who may at times get overworked in his business. I know he temporarily ceased new repairs until he caught up... I think that ended in September.

I hope this helps, and I am sure you will also see some of the other posts indicating problems.

I trust him. I live 3000 miles from him and only know him through purchases and repairs. I have spoken with him on the phone half a dozen times, and given him the time he needs to do the work he is capable of, including new bellows and shutter CLA. My communications with him have always been pleasant, and we both understood fully what was expected of each other.
 
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I recently sent Jurgen an Isolette III with Solinar 75/3.5 for bellows replacement and CLA and at the same time bought another Isolette III with Solinar 85/4.5.

The 85 was OK but the new bellows in the 75 had a pinhole. Jurgen promptly asked me to send it back. He said he found no pinhole but nevertheless gave me a replacement body with different bellows which is in just as good condition as my own and refitted my own lens and rangefinder. The camera arrived and no pinhole this time. The bellows in both cameras were properly fitted. So I can say, as far as my experience goes, I was more than happy with him.

Windscale, are you finding it strange that a Stuttgart body should come with an East German shutter (other than the usual compur or pronto)? I don't know enough about the history of Zeiss parts to help you out. I am sure many in RFF will be able to help you. But as far as usability is concerned, I have had a few so called East German Tessars with Tempor shutter, and they performed well. From some of your previous postings I noted that you are a user more than a collector. I think this camera in question has more user value than collector's value.
 
I agree with this. It's very unlikely that was the original lens. I'm not saying impossible, just highly unlikely.

This camera, which we call the Mess Ikonta, was known in the Zeiss Ikon catalogue as the Ikonta IIIc and was produced from 1951 to 1956. By this time, I believe, Carl Zeiss had returned to capacity, as far as its ability to supply lenses.

The specs called for either a Novar or Tessar lens in a Prontor or Compur shutter.

This lens is from the Eastern zone and is in an Eastern zone shutter (the Pentacon symbol).

I would tend to also believe that the lens was taken from an Ercona and put onto this body. I would also tend to think that it replaced a Novar. The swap might have been done decades ago or within the past year by another user.

And if you look closely, the distance markings are very difficult to read on the focusing ring. Quite the opposite with a Novar or Tessar for this lens.

HOWEVER, as long as it's properly collimated, there should be nothing wrong with this combination, and it should be a very fine camera.
 
Make sure you save all of the pictures he posted on the auction. He uses auctiva and by the time you get the camera most of the pictures are removed. He did a bait and switch on me and I paid top dollar. I tried to send it back but figured out it wasn't worth the aggrivation. I even saved the emails of our discussion.

Just be careful. I even cleaned it up better than the condition he sent it to me.
 
Windscale said:
I know this seller has been the subject of some controversies. But this is a Stuttgart body with a Tempor shutter. I think this is rare. Any advice?

http://cgi.ebay.com/Zeiss-524-2-Mes...39:1|66:2|65:12|240:1318&_trksid=p3911.c0.m14
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Up to you, but ...

1. I very much doubt that is the original lens and shutter.
2. I can see cracks in the bellows folds, so the bellows will need replacing very soon, if not immediately. How handy are you at drilling out rivets and replacing them?
 
I asked this on the Zeiss Ikon Collectors Group, and the general feeling is that this lens and shutter combo is not original, as the only lens/shutter combos were:

  • 524/2 Ipms 4.5/105 Novar (Rodenstock) AGC Prontor SVS 1-300 shutter
  • 524/2 Fpms 4.5/105 Novar (Hensoldt) AGC Prontor SVS 1-300 shutter
  • 524/4 Lcms 3.5/105 Zeiss-Opton or Carl Zeiss Tessar FWD 1-500 Synchro-Compur

This didn't surprise me, because of the presence of the Pentacon symbol, which would place it as an East Germany lens/shutter combo.

Again, it's very likely that this camera will produce great photos.

But from a collector's standpoint, it diminishes -- not raises -- the value of the camera, because it's an aftermarket one-off conversion and not a model that was part of a limited number of originals.
 
its definately not an original camera ,lens/shutter combination. this seller consistantly sells miss matched lens/shutter combinations on cameras. thats not to say they wont work effectively if everything has been adjusted correctly. but once they are changed then their not 'as they were some 50+ years ago' as stated in many of his ebay listings, and many people simply dont know and think they have an original camera

in my experiance and speaking to some others, neg feedback has not been given because if there was a problem by the time discussions with him had finished, and or the camera sent back to him and then returned to buyer, the time period allowed by ebay had lasped for the buyer to leave neg feedback. also its only a recent change in the ebay system that the seller cant leave neg feedback providing he has paid. before that many buyers were relunctent to leave neg feedback because they would receive the same in return. of course that not to say all buyers are unhappy, many upon many are
 
In any case, this is a rare camera, but for the wrong reason. It never existed in serial production.

By the way, mixing and matching of parts from different makers often is referred to as creating a "frankencamera."

In this case, the value of an Ikonta IIIc with a Tessar and Compur shutter seems to be between $250 and $325.

Because it's a coated Tessar, that adds a tiny amount of value, but the fact that it's parts from at least two different cameras reduces the value by about $50 to $75, possibly more.
 
You need to ignore the sales pitch in any of Jurgen's ads.

Someone - probably Jurgen - has put an Ercona lens and shutter on this Mess-Ikonta body. It isn't an original combination, but the Ercona was probably built on a pre-existing assembly line for the Ikonta C in Jena. The East German T Tessar has a stellar reputation.
 
ZeissFan said:
By the way, mixing and matching of parts from different makers often is referred to as creating a "frankencamera."

Because it's a coated Tessar, that adds a tiny amount of value, but the fact that it's parts from at least two different cameras reduces the value by about $50 to $75, possibly more.
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An apt term for this type of work - In addition to lowering the value of the camera, it also makes it a bit harder to sell should you ever decide to sell it.
 
Solinar said:
An apt term for this type of work - In addition to lowering the value of the camera, it also makes it a bit harder to sell should you ever decide to sell it.
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it is an apt term isnt it! its been quite some time since i had heard that term, i had forgotten it.

altering these cameras does significantly lower their value (moneytary and historically)-and makes them harder to sell in general---that is, so long as the buyer notices, and the seller is upfront enough to even say it isnt genuine!

this sort of thing happens often in the Leica world (all about making a dollar) but with vintage folders its much less a problem and certainly not expected from reputable sellers.

what makes this worse is sooner or later other people will copy this and then there is the added problem when these cameras get fliped on ebay to the next person
 
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To address the question asked by the OP, based on what I've read here & on the ZI list as well as with my personal experiances with him (ok, but weird), I'd say not to bid. I'll bet his reserve is far beyond what it would be worth as a user & it's worth, essentially, nothing as a collectable.

Keep looking. A good one that is sensibly priced will pop up sooner or later. If you really want to shoot a folder, maybe it's simply best to wait to see how much the Bessa III costs in a few months from now?

William
 
Thank you for all your help. I have also done some research. The body and the shutter would have been mutually exclusived items in those days. There would have been no collector's value with this camera. As for user value, it is better to find a proper ZI Tessar. East German Tessars are generally worht much less.

What probably happened was that some one had an ZI body with a no good lens and a good East German lens but a no good body and decided to marry the two together. I will not be going for it.
 
found on Certo6's website:

One very under-rated Zeiss folder I think is the so-called "Mess-Ikonta" 524/2 or 524/16. Basically it is an Ikonta B 523 with an uncoupled rangefinder added. The rangefinder is every bit as good as an Isolette III. Lenses for the Mess-Ikonta are often Novars, but they can be had with Tessars as well. Theses are usually found in very excellent condition.
 
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