Those Two Rear Window Cameras

R

ruben

Guest
Some time ago, my friend Mike Goldberg came home with his Bessa T, giving me the opportunity for the first time to appreciate this type of focusing - one window focusing, the other for framing.

The truth is that I was quite astonished by this way of focusing, seeming very accurate and even faster to use than the yellow patch coincidence of my cameras.

Now, the trick is that Mike was showing me a new Bessa T, with very bright glasses, not a FSU camera sample.

Nevertheless I am ready to accept the principle even for darker viewfinders. I am aware that my eye will have to jump from one window to the other. I am aware that many of these cameras are Feds 1 and Zorki 1, but there are later types as well, manufactured during the fifties and the latter are the ones interesting me.

Could you give your opinions, impressions and findings about these cameras rangefinding and what am I going to find if I buy one ?

Thanks a lot in advance,
Ruben
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I know separate viewfinder-rangefinder setups mainly from Zorkies, where I've usually found it to be a bit of a hassle because of the long distance between the two windows, and also because the last action I take is usually composing - this is done with the right window, and because I'm a left-eyed shooter my big head gets in the way of my right hand with the shutter release. In effect I mainly used the Zorki with the 21/f4 CV lens and left the viewfinder on at all times.

I've never used a Bessa T, although I'd like to at some point. I could imagine that with a more modern, less squinty viewfinder it is more fun. The Bessa T's setup appears hard to beat on accuracy, but you would probably lose a bit of time when framing.
 
Hi Philipp,
You detail about your particular problems, yet I am left without idea about the performance itself. How clear was the wiewing of the focusing window in your cameras, how good was the framing window? Is there any basic problem or fault in all models of the fifties I should be aware of ?

Cheers,
Ruben
 
ruben said:
I am aware that many of these cameras are Feds 1 and Zorki 1, but there are later types as well, manufactured during the fifties and the latter are the ones interesting me.

FED-1 and Zorki-1 were made in the 50s. In the FSU realm, I'm sure you will find the only other is the Zorki-2, which has the same viewfinder as its predecessor.

ruben said:
what am I going to find if I buy one ?

What you are going to find is a viewfinder system only slightly less convenient than a combined VF/RF. If you use anything other than a 50mm lens it is isn't any less convenient at all, and there are users who even find it no less convenient with a 50mm lens because they use superior or different 50mm finders.

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39150

You will also find the advantage of having a separate rangefinder in that the view through it is 1:1. In the FED-1, the RF view is dimmed but not so much as the FED-2 and it uses a yellow patch for contrast. In short you get the increased contrast where you need it, in the rangefinder, but full brightness where you need it, in the viewfinder. Another advantage is that the patch is larger than on the Fed-2 or the Zorki-6. The shorter baseline is no disadvantage in practice.

Rush out and get one, now....
 
Last edited:
I have a zorki 2C and really like it's rangefinder and viewer. I have not run film through it yet, as I've only had it for about a year! The rf and vf are clear and bright, the feel and finish of the camera are quite good by any standard, really good for russian.
It is bottom loading, however, which is something some people hate.
 
The Bessa T rf is a lot brighter than the old screwmounts. That is a very positive point. I think however I will be selling my black T shortly. Not really my thing, the separate finders. It is in good shape, with the Bessa L bag (or halfcase) and side grip. Very very useful accessory.
 
Hi Ruben,

OK, that was not particularly detailed, I admit, but I didn't want to get into a generic discussion of the Zorki's viewfinder system 🙂

Like some of the earlier screwmount Leicas, the Zorki has a dual viewfinder setup with two windows at the back, about 2 cm apart. The left one gives a circular view for the rangefinder, which is very, very squinty but has a magnification of 1:1. The right one is for composing and gives a rectangular view which roughly corresponds to a 50mm lens at a magnification which looks like 1:0.5, also quite squinty.

Because we have two windows, we can evaluate rangefinder operation and framing accuracy separately. The rangefinder feels reasonably precise, mainly because of the relatively large magnification. Framing for 50mm lenses, on the other hand, is a matter of taste, to put it diplomatically. Personally I think the Zorki (and the screwmount Leicas) viewfinder is a disaster, possibly the worst viewfinder I've ever looked through. The cameras have a cult following, so apparently it works for some people, but I am not one of them. I ended up using it only with lenses which require an external viewfinder anyway, largely the 21/f4 (where focusing is unnecessary) and the Jupiter-12 with a Helios finder. That is a very workable combination. When focusing this combination, I mostly leave my eye where it is and move the camera diagonally. The disadvantage is that the distance between the leftmost rangefinder window and the accessory shoe is quite large, so that I have to shift the camera quite a lot. As long as you and your subjects don't move, though, this is not much of a problem. Note that you have the same procedure with most other FSU cameras as well excepting possibly the Drug, because the viewfinder on all those gives a 50mm field of view - so here operation is exactly the same as on any other FSU camera, except that the whole thing is more compact.

Later Leicas have the windows closer together, which for 50mm lenses makes operation easier because you have to move the camera less.

A camera with a good 1:1 viewfinder, like the Drug (which I've tried) or a Bessa R3x (which I haven't), beats the Zorki's (and the original Leica's) viewfinder-rangefinder combination hands down both on rangefinder and framing accuracy. The advantage of the Bessa T in this respect is that its rangefinder magnification is even larger at 1.5, so you can focus even more precisely. Whether the whole system is more precise than even a Kiev (with its enormous physical baselength) seems somewhat doubtful to me, but it's probably less squinty. Incidentally, if you use a Kiev with an external viewfinder, you already get a pretty good idea of the operations involved, only that they're easier on a smaller camera like the Bessa T.

What I would have liked about the Bessa T is the externally-readable exposure meter. A very good idea. If I were to duplicate Huw Finney's TTL Leica III project, I would put in an external set of LEDs instead.

I suggest you get a Zorki-1 from somewhere and try it out. Even if you decide two-window operation is not for you, they are nice cameras overall, reasonably cheap and you get an impression of 1930s photography. (And by comparison with your Kievs, you get an impression how vastly superior the Contax was over the Leica!!) I got my Zorki-1 from a RFFer when preparing a seminar talk on Bateson and Mead's photoethnographic projects in Bali in the late 1930s. Being able to give students a Leica lookalike to play with was very useful in getting them to understand the parameters and limitations of photoethnographic work at the time.

Philipp
 
Last edited:
From the title of this thread, I thought we were going to try to identify the cameras Jimmy Stewart used in Hitchcock's "Rear Window".

The Bessa T and other cameras without intergated VF/RF windows work very well, and can be easier to use than integrated finders in some situations. I use my M's a lot at weddings, for instance, where there is a lot of fast moving action. It's impossible to follow-focus as you might with an SLR, so I prefer a separate viewfinder from the RF window sometimes, for ease of use. At f5.6, I let my DOF cover small changes in subject-camera distance, which I might sweat if I was looking through the RF patch. My pictures come out sharp.

Anyone want to sell me a Bessa T or a IIIc/f cheap for this type of work?
 
Hi Ruben,

I have 2 Fed 1s, a Zorki 1 and a Leica IIIf, so, as this suggests, I like the twin window effect🙂

The IIIf and Mike's Bessa T both have 1.5X magnification, which gives a similar effect to a longer RF base. I am quite sure that one can focus with greater accuracy than with (for example) a Bessa R or the other Soviet LTM cameras - at least this is my experience.

The Zorki and FEDs are modeled on the Leica II, which had a 1X magnification - still a significant advantage. One important point is that both cameras seem to have the distinctive characteristics of their manufacturer. As is generally true of FEDs, the FED RF spot is very contrasty, with a bold orange patch and clear separation. The Zorki patch seems closer to the Leica - less vivid although in a brighter finder. I far prefer the FED for focusing and - thought the Zorki is a little more refined - I prefer the distinctive "feel" of the FED - cruder perhaps, but curiously satisfying.

I have no trouble with the small VFs on any of these cameras, and find that the seperation of function actually improves both - one concentrates on one thing at a time.

Cheers, Ian
 
Last edited:
I find the two window system of the Barnack Leicas easier to use than my bottomloader Canons.


I also thought that this thread was about that Hitchcock film when I first read the title.
Ruben gone Exakta?
 
Last edited:
Ruben,

I can pretty much echo what others have said.

I have 2 FED-1s, a Zorki 1 and a Zorki 2C. The Zorkis have a less contrasty RF but it is brighter and more useful in low light. I find the FED tends to become unusable at lower illumination because the "fixed" image is hard to see. Because of the 1:1 magnification it's very easy to focus with them. The only downside is the somewhat squinty windows but it's actually not that bad.

Overall, I find them just as easy to use as any other FSU RF, perhaps even better for the 1:1 RF image (equalled by the Zorki 4/4K).

If you like the idea, a Zorki 2C is a nice camera for even less money than a Zorki or FED 1. Not quite as pretty but slightly more practical with its synchroniser and 2-piece speed dial. I've only run one film through my 2C so far, but it proved to be excellent.
 
Wolves

I've not noticed any difference between Fed 1 and Zorki 1 in good condition the finder is real easy, and the rgfdr is ok. Leitz if they did not bury Zeiss with the II, sure hit them hard. Zeiss were a congloromate Leitz an instrument maker, David and Goliath.

Noel
 
I have a Zorki 1C, until recently I had a Leica IIIc, and for 17 years I had a Leica M3. The advantage of a combined V/F and R/F shows up when dealing with moving subjects, for example children.
 
payasam said:
I have a Zorki 1C, until recently I had a Leica IIIc, and for 17 years I had a Leica M3. The advantage of a combined V/F and R/F shows up when dealing with moving subjects, for example children.

I agree, - I've had two 111f's and a Bessa T, and never took to two windows! , been using a Fed2 for the past six months, and still in love with it!, sometimes I
wish it had the slow speeds of the 111f, but on this type of camera it's not too much of a problem for me. IMO the handling is a lot nicer, and loading 100% better!. BTW lately I've been using an Idustar 61l/d - what a nice lens!! the best £6 (UK) worth I ever had!! 🙂

Dave,
 
Xmas said:
Wolves

I've not noticed any difference between Fed 1 and Zorki 1 in good condition the finder is real easy, and the rgfdr is ok. Leitz if they did not bury Zeiss with the II, sure hit them hard. Zeiss were a congloromate Leitz an instrument maker, David and Goliath.

Noel
Noel,

Perhaps I have an atypical FED 1 then. On mine, the moving image overpowers the fixed image to quite a degree. This is mainly due to the fixed/outer image not being overly bright. If I guessed at the splitter-mirror, I'd say it was not so much 50/50 as 80/20 in favour of the moving image. This is not the case for both my two-window Zorkis, they are somewhere around the 50/50 mark and better in low light. The only other FED 1 I have has a very weak moving image and needs repair (I'll do it someday!).
 
Last edited:
Wolves

Perhaps we need to clean them to be sure we are not comparing apples and oranges.
The Fed 1 I prefer is the early toilet seat version a 1b, it is uncoated but works ok, Ive not noticed any real difference in the view or range finders. I put them away at dark, and wont use wider than f/6.3 for quality.

Noel
 
Hi folks,

Thanks indeed for the great input here, with special mention to Philipp who has written a long long technical post, and as you know I am experienced in writing long post and it takes a lot of time. His long post will remain for me as the greatest reference point, whenever I come back to the issue.

I was heading towards a Zorki C, but I didn't tell you that it was half of my idea. The other half was having it with a collapsible. I say "I was" because I became convinced that the collapsible is very problematic for street photography, and specially in Jerusalem.

Making pictures in Jerusalem during the 8~7 months of bright sky, is much alike photographing in a sunlit beach. By city law, all homes are built in their exterior by 'jerusalem stone', which is yellowish to white, increasing the reflectance. Then most of homes are single or twofold store. So the transition from high sunlit and to shadow is very quick. The collapsible will must a hood and changing f/stops quickly from a hooded front lens outer side will be hell.

Nevertheless, Jocko has hitted the point. The idea of having a separated window for focusing and another for clean viewing and framing, attracts me very very much to try. So by now I am going to try it with my kievs.

For this end I have properly masked one of those 35mm Soviet finders, to cover for a 50mm lens area, these finders that are one of the gems left to us by the FSU, and it will remain at all times at the shoe of my user Kiev. I am heading as well to using a 50mm lens instead of the 40mm of the Canonets. I have found myself constantly too far from the subjects, so a 50mm is called for.

So with this new Kiev arrangement I will have the option of framing with the upper plastic finder when time is allowed, or focus and frame with the normal window when there is not time for luxury.

The other issue of the collapsible was the flatness of the package, allowing me to have the camera within my stomach belt. But I have an Olympus RC for that end, that according to our master connousieur Noel, it already carryies the hood behind the lens.

Cheers,
Ruben
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Ruben

The RC and similar Olympus cameas are internally baffled, but I alwys use a hood, in UK latitudes the Sun is lower more frequently, even if it is dim as well.

But when you drop it more might survive with a hood.

Sabat Shalom

Noel
 
Back
Top Bottom