thegman
Veteran
I am currently trying to decide which MF camera to buy. The front runners right now are:
Mamiya 645AFD, Mamiya 7, and Fujifilm GF670.
The 645AFD is in the running as it's cheaper than the other two, wide angle lenses are cheaper, and I am curious about SLRs (never had one). The Mamiya 7 is second cheapest, but the wide angle lenses are very expensive. The GF670 is the most expensive, no wide angles available, but it is very portable, and very pretty. I'll make no excuses for the fact that despite the higher price, lower flexibility of the GF670, that's the one I *want*. It may not be the one I *need* however.
I'm looking to do cityscapes, landscapes, street scenes (though not so much people, just street "stuff").
The Mamiya 7 and GF670 both have the advantage of a bigger negative, but while I read so much about how good the Mamiya lenses are, there are not so many people who speak up for the GF670 lens.
I'd love to see some examples from this lens, especially high resolution scans, also I'd love to hear from anyone who has both the Mamiya 7 and GF670.
While it may be heresy to say it here, the 645AFD is modern, inexpensive by comparison, the wide lenses are also inexpensive by comparison, and for accurate framing, it's hard to beat an SLR.
Love to hear some thoughts.
Thanks
Garry
Mamiya 645AFD, Mamiya 7, and Fujifilm GF670.
The 645AFD is in the running as it's cheaper than the other two, wide angle lenses are cheaper, and I am curious about SLRs (never had one). The Mamiya 7 is second cheapest, but the wide angle lenses are very expensive. The GF670 is the most expensive, no wide angles available, but it is very portable, and very pretty. I'll make no excuses for the fact that despite the higher price, lower flexibility of the GF670, that's the one I *want*. It may not be the one I *need* however.
I'm looking to do cityscapes, landscapes, street scenes (though not so much people, just street "stuff").
The Mamiya 7 and GF670 both have the advantage of a bigger negative, but while I read so much about how good the Mamiya lenses are, there are not so many people who speak up for the GF670 lens.
I'd love to see some examples from this lens, especially high resolution scans, also I'd love to hear from anyone who has both the Mamiya 7 and GF670.
While it may be heresy to say it here, the 645AFD is modern, inexpensive by comparison, the wide lenses are also inexpensive by comparison, and for accurate framing, it's hard to beat an SLR.
Love to hear some thoughts.
Thanks
Garry
Jamie123
Veteran
While I don't know you personally I'd venture to say that you probably don't *need* any new camera 
The GF670's lens is probably as sharp as anyone could wish for and IMO it's also quite contrasty. The only weak point is the out of focus area (some call it 'bokeh') in certain situation. If you're shooting wide open with a very contrasty detailed background (let's say leaves on a tree against a bright sky) it can look a bit unflattering.
The main advantage of the GF670 over the Mamiya 7 is size and portability. It's not portable in the sense that you can carry it with you and not even notice it like a small P&S but it's a camera you can carry over your shoulder for a walk without screaming ''camera guy''. Another advantage over the Mamiya 7 is the quiet shutter and the switchable format. It's also marginally faster than the 80mm Mamiya lens but that's really neglectable.
The Mamiya 7 is a system camera with a whole line up of lenses and as such it is a bit more serious than the GF670. It's also a lot more rugged and can probably take a hit or two while I wouldn't dare saying the same about my Bessa III.
As for the 645AFD I can't comment much. Looks like a decent camera with good lenses. I've never been a fan of the 6x45 aspect ratio but that's just me. It's got AF and AE so that's certainly a plus.
If you're interested in trying an SLR, how about a Hasselblad? It's a very nice camera to use and quite portable for a medium format SLR. And then there's the Pentax 6x7. It's a tank of a camera but there's not much to be said against it in terms of quality.
The GF670's lens is probably as sharp as anyone could wish for and IMO it's also quite contrasty. The only weak point is the out of focus area (some call it 'bokeh') in certain situation. If you're shooting wide open with a very contrasty detailed background (let's say leaves on a tree against a bright sky) it can look a bit unflattering.
The main advantage of the GF670 over the Mamiya 7 is size and portability. It's not portable in the sense that you can carry it with you and not even notice it like a small P&S but it's a camera you can carry over your shoulder for a walk without screaming ''camera guy''. Another advantage over the Mamiya 7 is the quiet shutter and the switchable format. It's also marginally faster than the 80mm Mamiya lens but that's really neglectable.
The Mamiya 7 is a system camera with a whole line up of lenses and as such it is a bit more serious than the GF670. It's also a lot more rugged and can probably take a hit or two while I wouldn't dare saying the same about my Bessa III.
As for the 645AFD I can't comment much. Looks like a decent camera with good lenses. I've never been a fan of the 6x45 aspect ratio but that's just me. It's got AF and AE so that's certainly a plus.
If you're interested in trying an SLR, how about a Hasselblad? It's a very nice camera to use and quite portable for a medium format SLR. And then there's the Pentax 6x7. It's a tank of a camera but there's not much to be said against it in terms of quality.
thegman
Veteran
Hi Jamie,
You're quite right, I don't *need* another camera, except for a couple of reasons, 1) my Ikon is away in Germany getting fixed, and my Klasse is not co-operating either, so I find myself without a film camera at all right now. 2) I'd like to try making prints bigger than 35mm can comfortably go to.
6x7 appeals a lot as the IQ is just going to leave 35mm and indeed pretty much any digital in the dust. 6x4.5 of course can too, but not such a great margin.
Mamiya 7 appeals for the reasons you mention, but for me, it's availability of wider lenses that really put it in the running. GF670 would fit in my man-bag though, and that's a real factor. The speed of the lenses is inconsequential to me, I like fast glass on 35mm, but that's because I'm more likely to have it with me on a whim, rather than go out prepared, like I'm likely to with MF.
Hasselblad was considered for a while, but to me, the 645AFD wins on modernity, value, and cheaper wide lenses. I am also curious about using a more modern camera, vs. my comparatively basic Ikon.
GF670 with it's 80mm lens is quite a lot more than a Mamiya 7 with an 80mm lens though, if they were both the same price, I'd almost certainly go for the GF670.
Also, what I need to consider is that if either the Mamiya 7 or/and GF670 have an easily adjustable range finder, so if it takes a knock and loses calibration, am I sending it off to shop or could I feasibly do it myself.
Being without a camera makes me want to rush out and buy one, but I want to make the right choice...
Cheers
Garry
You're quite right, I don't *need* another camera, except for a couple of reasons, 1) my Ikon is away in Germany getting fixed, and my Klasse is not co-operating either, so I find myself without a film camera at all right now. 2) I'd like to try making prints bigger than 35mm can comfortably go to.
6x7 appeals a lot as the IQ is just going to leave 35mm and indeed pretty much any digital in the dust. 6x4.5 of course can too, but not such a great margin.
Mamiya 7 appeals for the reasons you mention, but for me, it's availability of wider lenses that really put it in the running. GF670 would fit in my man-bag though, and that's a real factor. The speed of the lenses is inconsequential to me, I like fast glass on 35mm, but that's because I'm more likely to have it with me on a whim, rather than go out prepared, like I'm likely to with MF.
Hasselblad was considered for a while, but to me, the 645AFD wins on modernity, value, and cheaper wide lenses. I am also curious about using a more modern camera, vs. my comparatively basic Ikon.
GF670 with it's 80mm lens is quite a lot more than a Mamiya 7 with an 80mm lens though, if they were both the same price, I'd almost certainly go for the GF670.
Also, what I need to consider is that if either the Mamiya 7 or/and GF670 have an easily adjustable range finder, so if it takes a knock and loses calibration, am I sending it off to shop or could I feasibly do it myself.
Being without a camera makes me want to rush out and buy one, but I want to make the right choice...
Cheers
Garry
John NYC
Established
As the owner of a Bessa III -- and one who thinks it is a great camera -- I will still say to most people, get the Mamiya 7 II unless you specifically need the portability of folding. Being able to get a wider lens than 80mm is really the biggest factor.
Mamiya lenses have a different look to the Bessa/Fuji lens, but both are nice in their own way. Hasselblad lenses have the strongest signature to me. I doubt that, stopped down to 5.6 or smaller, most people could tell the difference between any of them though on most shots. Wide open the Bessa/Fuji has the least pleasing bokeh to me, but I have learned to control the situation to avoid the least flattering circumstances.
645 format is too small for me (do the math in area and you will see).
Mamiya lenses have a different look to the Bessa/Fuji lens, but both are nice in their own way. Hasselblad lenses have the strongest signature to me. I doubt that, stopped down to 5.6 or smaller, most people could tell the difference between any of them though on most shots. Wide open the Bessa/Fuji has the least pleasing bokeh to me, but I have learned to control the situation to avoid the least flattering circumstances.
645 format is too small for me (do the math in area and you will see).
thegman
Veteran
Thanks for the input John, I think I'd mostly be in f/8 so I guess the lens is going to perform well at that aperture regardless. I'm not wanting much from the lens, just clarity, sharpness, etc. I'm not looking for "character" really, just dependability. I'm not one of those guys that gets a certain lens for "swirly bokeh".
I think you're right, I need to decide how portable I need this camera to be, and maybe another factor is that the Mamiya 7 to the untrained observer probably looks kind of like a DSLR and I'm not going to draw any attention. A folder is going attract more interest, which in all honesty, I don't really want, I'm a reasonably unsocial type that just wants to be left alone.
I think you're right, I need to decide how portable I need this camera to be, and maybe another factor is that the Mamiya 7 to the untrained observer probably looks kind of like a DSLR and I'm not going to draw any attention. A folder is going attract more interest, which in all honesty, I don't really want, I'm a reasonably unsocial type that just wants to be left alone.
Jamie123
Veteran
I think you're right, I need to decide how portable I need this camera to be, and maybe another factor is that the Mamiya 7 to the untrained observer probably looks kind of like a DSLR and I'm not going to draw any attention. A folder is going attract more interest, which in all honesty, I don't really want, I'm a reasonably unsocial type that just wants to be left alone.
I will agree with John on this one. Unless you know exactly that portability is a major concern I'd go with the Mamiya 7. I mainly got the Bessa III because I want to use it as a travel camera. When I'm travelling with my girlfriend I can't be lugging around a big bulky camera all the time so the Bessa III is perfect for this. I have yet to take it on a major trip, though, so I'll see how reliable it is.
As for the camera drawing attention I wouldn't worry too much about it. Sure, you might get one or two weird looks with the folder but I think it wouldn't be much different with a Mamiya 7. Heck, even with a DSLR you sometimes get people walking up to you and asking about it. Some people just like to chat. Personally, I always ask to take a portrait of anyone who approaches me about my camera. If they bother me I can bother them
As for your buying decision, while you cannot try out the GF670 you can try out the Mamiya 7. You can rent one at Calumet for around £45/day (camera and one lens). Rent it for a day and go out shooting. If the size and bulk of it are a problem, consider the GF670. Otherwise go with the Mamiya. Besides, if you get the Mamiya used you can most likely resell it at the same price you paid for it. A new GF670 will inevitably have to be sold at a loss.
chrism
Well-known
A folder is going attract more interest, which in all honesty, I don't really want, I'm a reasonably unsocial type that just wants to be left alone.
Ah, but the folder has that "he was a loner who kept to himself" air about it that most people these days know they should avoid (much to the advantage of said loner...)
Chris
aizan
Veteran
a few thoughts.
1) a rangefinder might not be the right tool.
2) if the mamiya rz67 is too big, the bronica gs-1 or pentax 67 might fit the bill.
3) if all of those are too big, the mamiya 645af and pentax 645n/ii are good, affordable alternatives.
4) if those are still too big, maybe the bronica rf645 or fuji ga645/w will do the trick.
i'd like to see some reliable examples of how the mamiya 7 lens compares to the fuji gf670. i've heard conflicting reports about sharpness. though comments are sparse, one person said the fuji is sharper, while another said the mamiya is sharper. others have noted that the fuji has noticeable barrel distortion, more vignetting, and lower contrast, though somebody recently started a thread wondering if it may be too contrasty. and how much worse is the bokeh? from what i've seen on flickr, it does seem to be worse, but i've seen some mamiya shots that had harsh bokeh, too.
1) a rangefinder might not be the right tool.
2) if the mamiya rz67 is too big, the bronica gs-1 or pentax 67 might fit the bill.
3) if all of those are too big, the mamiya 645af and pentax 645n/ii are good, affordable alternatives.
4) if those are still too big, maybe the bronica rf645 or fuji ga645/w will do the trick.
i'd like to see some reliable examples of how the mamiya 7 lens compares to the fuji gf670. i've heard conflicting reports about sharpness. though comments are sparse, one person said the fuji is sharper, while another said the mamiya is sharper. others have noted that the fuji has noticeable barrel distortion, more vignetting, and lower contrast, though somebody recently started a thread wondering if it may be too contrasty. and how much worse is the bokeh? from what i've seen on flickr, it does seem to be worse, but i've seen some mamiya shots that had harsh bokeh, too.
dogberryjr
[Pithy phrase]
Here are some pretty cool examples from the GF670 (branded Voigtlaender in this case): http://www.flickr.com/photos/deadslow/tags/voigtländerbessaiii667/
thegman
Veteran
Chris, I would certainly hope that would be the case..
Aizan, I think your first point the most important, a range finder may not be what I need in this case. I am occasionally wanting for more accurate framing than a range finder can provide, not often, but it does happen.
The Mamiya 645AFD is winning in my mind right now, it's the least expensive of the cameras I am considering, wide angle lenses are downright cheap, and maybe an SLR makes more sense in this case. The downsides are size/weight, and also the negative size, 6x7 would be great, but I think 6x4.5 will still be a great step up for me.
Aizan, I think your first point the most important, a range finder may not be what I need in this case. I am occasionally wanting for more accurate framing than a range finder can provide, not often, but it does happen.
The Mamiya 645AFD is winning in my mind right now, it's the least expensive of the cameras I am considering, wide angle lenses are downright cheap, and maybe an SLR makes more sense in this case. The downsides are size/weight, and also the negative size, 6x7 would be great, but I think 6x4.5 will still be a great step up for me.
mel
Established
I could have written your post, Garry, with respect to the Mamiya 7ii and Fuji GF670. The way I resolved it is I'm getting both and sold a 2nd car to finance it. Specifically, I'm snagging the 43mm lens only with the Mamiya body. That single lens will keep me very absorbed. And of course I plan on carrying the Fuji with me all the time. Oh, yeh, I'm selling my Canon 50D too. Where there's a will, there's a way. The great thing about all these cameras is they hold their value. Certainly better than my car any way. Instead of multiple choice as we learned in school figure out a way to snag two out of three of your answers.
thegman
Veteran
I've ended up with the Mamiya 7, with the 65mm lens, ended up cheaper than te GF670 and more my sort of focal length. I still covet the GF670 though, but could not justify owning both, so I'l give the Mamiya a spin, if it does not work out, then I can sell and get the GF670.
Jamie123
Veteran
I think you'll be very happy with the Mamiya 7. Otherwise there's always the possibility to switch systems.
As for the Bessa's lens, just today I did some scanning and stumbled upon on of the first rolls I shot with this camera. I usually don't shoot slides very often but I wanted to test the camera's meter so I loaded it with a roll of Fuji Provia 400X I had sitting around.
This is a portrait I took of a guy that asked about my camera. Nothing special but I think it shows quite a pleasing out of focus background while being pretty sharp at the point of focus (eyes). Must've been shot wide open or close to it as it was taken inside a trainstation on a late summer afternoon. Bit too saturated for my taste but that's because I usually don't shoot slides.
And here's a 100% crop. Bear in mind that it's ISO 400 slide film and the shutterspeed must've been on the slow side as there wasn't too much light.
All in all I think it's a pretty nice lens. Looking at the earlier rolls I remember that I shot wide open quite a lot. Now I mostly stop down as much as possible but I think I need to reconsider my approach. This lens can be great at maximum aperture when used correctly.
As for the Bessa's lens, just today I did some scanning and stumbled upon on of the first rolls I shot with this camera. I usually don't shoot slides very often but I wanted to test the camera's meter so I loaded it with a roll of Fuji Provia 400X I had sitting around.
This is a portrait I took of a guy that asked about my camera. Nothing special but I think it shows quite a pleasing out of focus background while being pretty sharp at the point of focus (eyes). Must've been shot wide open or close to it as it was taken inside a trainstation on a late summer afternoon. Bit too saturated for my taste but that's because I usually don't shoot slides.
And here's a 100% crop. Bear in mind that it's ISO 400 slide film and the shutterspeed must've been on the slow side as there wasn't too much light.
All in all I think it's a pretty nice lens. Looking at the earlier rolls I remember that I shot wide open quite a lot. Now I mostly stop down as much as possible but I think I need to reconsider my approach. This lens can be great at maximum aperture when used correctly.
PKR
Veteran
I've used a 645 pro. It is a manual camera with a quartz controlled shutter. So, the camera needs a battery for the shutter. It will last 6mo to a year, depending on use. If you go the AF route, you're back in the fresh + spare battery thing. One of the things I don't like about digital is all the batteries and charging. it's not like you can walk out the door with a camera and a pocket of AA batteries; all my digit stuff has proprietary NiMH batteries that need "individual care and treatment". If you want a 645 pro, and work outdoors a lot, I would consider a manual model. Cheaper too! You can use the difference in money for an additional lens.
I just did a search and it looks like it may take AAs , If so, I'm wrong on the batteries. i would still go for a manual camera in that size. There are just a lot more things to go wrong with an AF camera + the added weight. p.
p.
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thegman
Veteran
@Jamie123: Looks perfect to me, very sharp, and I'm more interested in that than "character", if the Mamiya does not work out for me, then I'll definitely be after the GF670.
@PKR: In the end, the 645AFD was just that bit too big I think, and also the 6x4.5 negs are maybe not quite what I was after. Still looks like a great camera for a good price I think though, I agree about the batteries though, it puts me off a lot about digital all that charging and watching the battery meter.
@PKR: In the end, the 645AFD was just that bit too big I think, and also the 6x4.5 negs are maybe not quite what I was after. Still looks like a great camera for a good price I think though, I agree about the batteries though, it puts me off a lot about digital all that charging and watching the battery meter.
D
Deleted member 4131
Guest
Have you seen Steve Huff's review of the GF670? Some nice street shots there.
http://www.stevehuffphoto.com/2010/06/17/the-fuji-gf670-film-camera-review-medium-format-lives/
Steve.
http://www.stevehuffphoto.com/2010/06/17/the-fuji-gf670-film-camera-review-medium-format-lives/
Steve.
thegman
Veteran
@SteveP: Yes, I read Steve Huff every day, I think he did some great work with the GF670 and has a great video of it, which really exacerbated my GAS condition. In the end, maybe it was just a bit too expensive for me, and the 80mm lens not quite my ideal, so I saved some money and got the Mamiya 7 with a 65mm lens, which is more my sort of focal length.
I think the GF670 is the most interesting camera to appear for a long time, and in a moment of weakness, I expect I'll get one at some point.
I think the GF670 is the most interesting camera to appear for a long time, and in a moment of weakness, I expect I'll get one at some point.
historicist
Well-known
Not being an owner of a GF670 (looks great though, I'd love to try one) or any of the other cameras mentioned, could I perhaps mention the Mamiya 6 as a possibility?
3 lenses available (50mm, 75mm and 150mm), all collapse into the body which make it very easy to carry around. I've only got the 75mm - super sharp, slightly harsh bokeh, on all accounts the 50mm is also excellent. Ergonomics of the camera are near perfect.
Some examples:
3 lenses available (50mm, 75mm and 150mm), all collapse into the body which make it very easy to carry around. I've only got the 75mm - super sharp, slightly harsh bokeh, on all accounts the 50mm is also excellent. Ergonomics of the camera are near perfect.
Some examples:
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