to all who worry about film being deadish

[Michael I.]

Taking into acount the recent demise of many film camera manufacturers I started to worry. So I did a little searchin' on the internet .

The news are about 8mm film. If they still make it,and release new products,35 mm is ok. According to all the big 8 mm film sites there are 40 or so brands available(some are new some are about to be discontinued,some are new).

http://onsuper8.blogspot.com/2006/04/spectra-news-fuji-velvia.html
http://onsuper8.blogspot.com/2006/01/pro8mm-do-it-again.html
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/s8mm/7280.jhtml

I dont think anyone makes new 8 mm film cameras since the sixties.

People will most likely sell and resell the classics and repair them for a long time yet. I am not sure about electronic cameras though,but I dont care for them much.

8mm is an awkward and unpractical technology - apparently it still has a strong following.

I am sorry if I annoy anyone with this thread(film is not dead is an annoying subject - but it worries me).

P.S.

did you know AM radio is stereo now?that was a shock to me.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AM_stereo

 

[pvdhaar]

The film is dead discussion is much like the computer vs. human chess debate..

I've heard claims that the sooner computers are able to consistently beat even the best human player, the better. Once the dispute is finally settled, we humans can play chess again amongst ourselves, not because we're best, but because it's fun..

 

[Michael I.]

and write with quill pens and listen to vynil records and read hard cover books and consume diverse food(as opposed to franchised restaraunts where you can get the same stuff worldwide) , oh wait,i still do all of the above, and I was born after\during the alleged demise of all of the above(I am 24)

 

[clarence]

Could the fact that the 'Is film dead' discussion persists be proof that debate (and the need for it) will never die?

Maybe. Anyway there are two things to bear in mind:

1. The rate of technological progress is exponential, not geometric. If it took a century to kill photographic glass plates, it may well take just 5 more years to kill film.

2. Even if someone in the world keeps producing film, the demand-supply ratio will be so unfavourable that film costs will become prohibitive. Furthermore, many varieties of film will be discontinued, their machinery dismantled, and the recipes for their emulsions lost to the rubbish heap of history. We may find shooting with film fun, but the rest of the world doesn't, and the invisible hand of the free market will punish us for this.

The solution, as far as I see it, is to stock up on the film you want now. If you were bent on using Technical Pan or Kodachrome, for example, bulk rolls of that stuff would be sitting next to your Christmas turkey in the freezer right now.

Clarence

 

[Finder]

Technology that is dead after being replaced with something superior:

Looms
vinyl records
turntables
tube amplifiers
sail boats
paint brushes
bicycles
theater
radio
movies
film
analog watches
Hammond organs
airships
steam engines
wooden view cameras

It is sad none of these things survive today.

 

[lushd]

Completely unfair and unreasonable comparison - they haven't made a Zorki 1 for 50 years. My three still work!

 

[Andrew Sowerby]

Technology that is dead after being replaced with something superior:

Looms
vinyl records
turntables
tube amplifiers
sail boats
paint brushes
bicycles
theater
radio
movies
film
analog watches
Hammond organs
airships
steam engines
wooden view cameras

It is sad none of these things survive today.

^That made me laugh.

 

[Finder]

Even if someone in the world keeps producing film, the demand-supply ratio will be so unfavourable that film costs will become prohibitive.

I would love to see some proof of that. If it was not prohibative in the early part of the last century when George E invented the stuff and the market was far smaller than it is today, why would it suddenly be expensive twenty years from now when production techniques are far more cost effective?

Oh heck, even before Georgy-E, people were making their own emulsions. I am sorry, but there is no proof the sky will fall. There is also no proof there will not be a market. Demands usually make supplies. Folks are still using the old view camera and sheet film is still available.

This fatalistic talk is not going to help either. I can still go downtown and get medium and large-format films. I can even get Polaroid film for heaven's sake. Fuji has released two new films this year. Films have also been discontinued in the past. Relax. Film will be here. Or are you saying the predictions I heard ten years ago that film would be dead in five years are true?

 

[Finder]

As much as I would love to continue this discussion, I have to go into the darkroom and make some color prints on my two dead enlargers. I have to get a scanner one of these days.

 

[Michael I.]

when I see film is dead threads I offer people to donate me their dead cameras and darkroom equipment.

I see dead cameras

 

[clarence]

Gentlemen,

For all you know, I might be scare-mongering in an effort to make you all go out and support a dying industry.

I'll say it again: I love this forum.

Clarence

 

[jaapv]

did you know AM radio is stereo now?that was a shock to me.

You must be even older than I am. I remember my father listening to a stereo broadcast -the Matthaeus Passion- in 1956...... No FM broadcasts in our country until the late sixties.

 

[wrenhunter]

You must be even older than I am. I remember my father listening to a stereo broadcast -the Matthaeus Passion- in 1956...... No FM broadcasts in our country until the late sixties.

Hey, I just saw the St. Matthew Passion live on Friday -- they were using period instruments. But I'm sure that practice, and old-fashioned classical music, can't be long for this world

 

[Michael I.]

I am offered a 250 record collection.mostly classical.All emi,columbia,telefunken,deutche gramophon.1$ a pieace.I think I can get 1/2 price for the whole lot.

 

[pvdhaar]

You must be even older than I am. I remember my father listening to a stereo broadcast -the Matthaeus Passion- in 1956...... No FM broadcasts in our country until the late sixties.

These transmissions were really uncommon then. You had to have two radio sets in those days, each tuned to a different channel. Talk about a flashback..

In the mid sixties, these experimental broadcasts morphed into a very well executed April fools' day gag where people were led to believe that along the same lines you could have stereo television. That had a couple of people sitting with dark sunglasses in a completely dark room..

 

[Socke]

Technology that is dead after being replaced with something superior:

Looms
vinyl records
turntables
tube amplifiers
sail boats
paint brushes
bicycles
theater
radio
movies
film
analog watches
Hammond organs
airships
steam engines
wooden view cameras

It is sad none of these things survive today.

Hm, looms may be the mashines they make fabric with, so yes, those are the mashines which started the industrial revolution.

I know a company in germany pressing vinyl records, they just bought the last two presses left in europe. Most of their presses are older than 30 years, there are no sparparts and no support and nobody builds new presses. So when the last is press is gone they'll have to stop making vinyl records.

A couple of turntables are still made, usualy very expensive high end equipment and specialized DJ equipment. At least the DJ equipment aren't bought for the better sound, scratching isn't good for vinyl LPs

Tube amplifiers are made for the owners of high end turntables, the warmer sound etc. you don't get with transistors. Those often buy cables for some 100 Euro per meter because the special shielding reduces induction and thus improves the sound by an unmeasurable but clearly hearable amount of 0.0001%.

Sail boats for pleasure are wide available, but no shipyard trying to build a comercial ship powered by sails was succesfull, I should know, we had two of those shipyards employing some 20,000 people and both went bust in the 90s.

Paint brushes yes, but not all qualities we had some 10 to 20 years ago. Brushes for retouching are best found at cabbinet makers suppliers nowadays. They use these brushes for inlays etc. but you won't find them at photo stores anymore.

Bicycles are back again, from traditional black "Holland" style to high end exotic materials mashines. They are definitely part of the modern lifestyle. Add Oakley sunglasses, a 3G mobile phone and a digital camera and you're IN[/]

Theater here survives barely on government money, every seat in Bremens Theater is subsidized with 140 Euro per perfomance. A lot of tax money from people who don't go to the theater!

Radio is pretty well as is TV, especialy when you add internetradio to the equation.

The movie industry is pretty healthy, but they earn most with DVD sells. Only a handfull films earn more than cost in movie theaters. The movie theaters on the other hand are close to extinction. The bigger, we call them Multiplex, theaters with more than 6 screens earn some money, the good old single screen cinema is gone.
Ok, not quite, we still have two from the 12 we had 1989.

Film will be available as long as somebody makes it, see Agfa Photo.

Analog watches, hm, where is the cheap timex I had as a boy? Glashütte, Meyer u. Söhne etc. pp are available and they earn money with watches exceeding 20.000 Euro, but a watch is digital today.

Hammond Organs? Where?

Airships, don't remind me! I invested in Cargolifter who went bust before they began to produce their first airship. The hangar is now used for an indoor amusement park, which may go bust anytime soon.
Blimps are much cheaper and used for advertising, but they are not airships!

A friend of mine earns a healthy living with (model)steam engines, even some bigger ones to propell fun boats, see sailing boats. the boat engines may end this year since they don't meat environmental norms for boat engines.

Wooden view cameras? I know Calumet has them, but I don't know anybody using one.


And nobody produces film 8, 16, 35 or 70mm wide, they produce it a couple of meters wide and then cut to the desired size, as long as the mashines are working you can get anything you want.
Ilford just scraped their last mashine for 220 films, no spareparts no support and not enough demand to finance a new one. So Ilford in 220 is gone.

So if we have a look at the list, we find some products which are only available to the realy ritch, wristwatch at the price of a good medium sized japanese car, turntable at the price of a BMW 5, pleasure boats at the price of a house. Then we have products wich fit another purpose than what was intended, bicycles as sports and lifestyle gear instead of main/only form of transportation, steam engines as toys and so on.

The german motorcycle industry is a good example, in the 50s we had lots of different brands which died when the people could afford cars. By the way, most of german motorcycle producers built sewing mashines first, then bicycles and motorcycles later.

So if somebody finds a way to produce film in small quantities I see a posibility. Producing the world wide demand in a week has been proven as failure by Agfa Photo.


I know a couple people who have enough money to own Glashütte watches, Catalina and Elvstroem yachts and Ferraris and Bentleys as well, but those don't use film! Either P&S digitals or Canon 1Ds or digibacks on Hassy H1. One has a couple Leicas in a showcase which he remembers to use sometime soon when we meet

 

[c.poulton]

Technology that is dead after being replaced with something superior:

Looms
vinyl records
turntables
tube amplifiers
sail boats
paint brushes
bicycles
theater
radio
movies
film
analog watches
Hammond organs
airships
steam engines
wooden view cameras

It is sad none of these things survive today.

All of which you can still come by today NEW! For example the steam locamotive! (http://www.5at.co.uk/)

 

[Socke]

I would love to see some proof of that. If it was not prohibative in the early part of the last century when George E invented the stuff and the market was far smaller than it is today, why would it suddenly be expensive twenty years from now when production techniques are far more cost effective?

Easy, the producers adjusted to a bigger market, economy of scale means producing more in less time.

Now they can't sell in a year what they produce in a week.
the old mashines from the 50s which are still in use by companies like Efke need two to three weeks to produce a years demand of film.

Those mashines are designed to produce 24/7 and you can't just switch them on for a couple of hours. From the start it takes some time to get a consistent quality and the quality stays consistent from that point. With every restart you waste a lot of rawmaterial until you reach the optimum production conditions.

 

[bmattock]

Analog watches, hm, where is the cheap timex I had as a boy? Glashütte, Meyer u. Söhne etc. pp are available and they earn money with watches exceeding 20.000 Euro, but a watch is digital today.

I know a couple people who have enough money to own Glashütte watches,

I have a Glashütte mechanical watch. This one:

OK, so it is a Nautische Instrumente Mühle Glashütte, not the one you meant.

But it is still cool - and I bought it when I was in Germany!

Today I'm wearing a 1912 Elgin Transition (woman's pocket watch converted to men's wristwatch following WWI). Silveroid case, sub-seconds, 7 jewels. I wind it every day when I wear it.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

 

[pvdhaar]

Ok, here's a tidbit of hope for those who think it can only go downhill from here:

http://www.news.utoronto.ca/bin6/060420-2216.asp