climbing_vine
Well-known
Topdog1 said:
I use an Intel iMac at work. My main projects are web applications, so I spend a *lot* of time having to do cross-platform/cross-browser testing, and dealing with PhotoShop and Word docs that people have dumped on me.
I run Boot Camp for dual booting between OS 10.4 and Windows XP. Windows and its apps run better on here than on any of the (mostly Dell and HP) machines I've had the misfortune of using in the past fifteen years. Startup time is a fraction of what it is on a Wintel box, for some reason--probably because it's not being drug down by BIOS among other things.
My wife uses Parallels instead of dual-booting, to run XP alongside OS X. She's the lead communications person for the Office of Information Tech at the same Big Ten univerisity, edits a monthly print newsletter (tabloid style, generally 12 pages) among many other things. She uses all of the Adobe creative suite on that machine as well as other layout software and such, and XP runs just as fast or faster as compared to her Dell.
The "Virtual PC is a dog" thing is old news. Virtual PC isn't even necessary anymore, and Windows doesn't have to be emulated with the move to Intel chips.
Jorge, I'd wholeheartedly recommend it. Given that the price points for similar machines are almost always within 2% or so, getting the one that can run all major OSs and software (well) is pretty much a no-brainer (at least to me) at this point assuming you don't want to go the build-your-own direction.
nightfly
Well-known
I don't know why you guys are talking about Virtual PC.
All new Macs are built on Intel chips. You can either use Apple's Bootcamp and boot it up as a PC or you can use something called Parallels which allows you to run both operating systems simultanously, much faster than the Virtual PC garbage of old since the core chip is a PC.
I would certainly investigate this before you make a decision.
One more thing, as of now Photoshop isn't running natively on the new Macs with Intel chips so it will be slower than it is on the older G4 or G5 Macs but Adobe is promising to have it fully ported shortly and I think released a free beta of this recently.
All new Macs are built on Intel chips. You can either use Apple's Bootcamp and boot it up as a PC or you can use something called Parallels which allows you to run both operating systems simultanously, much faster than the Virtual PC garbage of old since the core chip is a PC.
I would certainly investigate this before you make a decision.
One more thing, as of now Photoshop isn't running natively on the new Macs with Intel chips so it will be slower than it is on the older G4 or G5 Macs but Adobe is promising to have it fully ported shortly and I think released a free beta of this recently.
dpetrzelka
Well-known
Its true that once you go Mac, you never go back.
There's a solid reason that a vast majority of the visual communications world (graphic design and photography) use Macs-- they disappear. It will change your work flow-- you no longer notice the machine, just the ease with which you can use it as a tool to express your ideas. Dare I say the Leica of the computer world? (ungodly expensive, and worth every penny to those who've made the jump)
I know the current 20", 23" and 30" displays are SWOP certified for soft proofing for web offset(if that means anything to you) - not sure about the iMac sceens.
Go for it.
There's a solid reason that a vast majority of the visual communications world (graphic design and photography) use Macs-- they disappear. It will change your work flow-- you no longer notice the machine, just the ease with which you can use it as a tool to express your ideas. Dare I say the Leica of the computer world? (ungodly expensive, and worth every penny to those who've made the jump)
I know the current 20", 23" and 30" displays are SWOP certified for soft proofing for web offset(if that means anything to you) - not sure about the iMac sceens.
Go for it.
LeicaM3
Well-known
Absolutely buy a Mac.
Monitor
Good Dells are as good as Apple's (same manufacturer) and cheaper. Check here for good deals.
Mac
If you use for photo processing, get something fast and expandable (not the iMac). Get a MacPro. Employee discount, of course.
Hook up the Dell to you MacPro.
Advantages: add hard disks (you will need terrabytes if you scan raw), upgrade processor, graphic card, etc. It will serve you for many years.
The iMac is too limited for upgrades and you will need external hard drives.
Software
If you have PC software you can ask for Mac versions. Friend of mine was allowed to switch when he upgraded to a Mac to exchange for Photoshop for Mac.
If you consider buying PS wait for PS CS3 since it will have Intel binary.
But there is open source gimpshop, a PS copy, free and it does almost the same, especially for non-pro users.
Mac comes with outstanding software, worth thousand of dollars on the PC.
If you scan, you likely use vuescan anyway, the license you bougth is for Mac/PC/Linux.
Lightroom beta4 is a free download from adobe if you want to test it. Way better then the windows version, it was developed on a mac.
Aperture rocks and I prefer it over PS, as I prefer LR over PS.
Virtual PC does not even run on Intel Macs, forget about that suggestions. If you want to run windows apps (why?) use parallels.
Workflow
Yes, you can work your windows workflow.
But why not improve. The Mac is so simple, intuitive.
Your workflow will likely be dramatically better and faster.
Summary
Buy a Mac. Start working on projects rather than keeping the thing running.
Stop spending 40% of CPU cycles on anti viral-/trojan-/worm-/whatever software.
As my co-contributors have said, you won't understand until you have used one.
Mac user since 1981. Fix peoples PCs at work until the upgrade to Macs. Run a few servers for work.
PM with questions.
Good Luck,
Andreas
Monitor
Good Dells are as good as Apple's (same manufacturer) and cheaper. Check here for good deals.
Mac
If you use for photo processing, get something fast and expandable (not the iMac). Get a MacPro. Employee discount, of course.
Hook up the Dell to you MacPro.
Advantages: add hard disks (you will need terrabytes if you scan raw), upgrade processor, graphic card, etc. It will serve you for many years.
The iMac is too limited for upgrades and you will need external hard drives.
Software
If you have PC software you can ask for Mac versions. Friend of mine was allowed to switch when he upgraded to a Mac to exchange for Photoshop for Mac.
If you consider buying PS wait for PS CS3 since it will have Intel binary.
But there is open source gimpshop, a PS copy, free and it does almost the same, especially for non-pro users.
Mac comes with outstanding software, worth thousand of dollars on the PC.
If you scan, you likely use vuescan anyway, the license you bougth is for Mac/PC/Linux.
Lightroom beta4 is a free download from adobe if you want to test it. Way better then the windows version, it was developed on a mac.
Aperture rocks and I prefer it over PS, as I prefer LR over PS.
Virtual PC does not even run on Intel Macs, forget about that suggestions. If you want to run windows apps (why?) use parallels.
Workflow
Yes, you can work your windows workflow.
But why not improve. The Mac is so simple, intuitive.
Your workflow will likely be dramatically better and faster.
Summary
Buy a Mac. Start working on projects rather than keeping the thing running.
Stop spending 40% of CPU cycles on anti viral-/trojan-/worm-/whatever software.
As my co-contributors have said, you won't understand until you have used one.
Mac user since 1981. Fix peoples PCs at work until the upgrade to Macs. Run a few servers for work.
PM with questions.
Good Luck,
Andreas
S
Socke
Guest
Topdog1 said:
My three broken Shuttle XPCs are not what I consider a good success rate and they are not realy reparable.
The first two died from cheap capacitors after the waranty expired and the third has been to shuttle for repairs twice and still doesn't work.
I know have a fanless Via EPIA board with an external power source in the case of the last one, works very quiet as my homeentertainment system
drewbarb
picnic like it's 1999
Ira may be right about image processing programs being slow on Virtual PC- b ut why would you bother? Image processing is faster and smoother on a Mac, straight up.
If you are doing web design, you should have one good computer of each platform. Otherwise, Macs are superior machines for visual tasks. If they aren't how come 90% of professional prepress houses, imaging houses of all kinds, photographers, retouchers, etc.etc.etc. use them? Besides, OS X is a Unix based program, so clearly the two platforms are moving towards each other. Macs still have the benefit of just not getting viruses, no matter what you click on. And, as others have noted, I've used Macs for 20+ years and never had one crash. I know which way I'd go.
If you are doing web design, you should have one good computer of each platform. Otherwise, Macs are superior machines for visual tasks. If they aren't how come 90% of professional prepress houses, imaging houses of all kinds, photographers, retouchers, etc.etc.etc. use them? Besides, OS X is a Unix based program, so clearly the two platforms are moving towards each other. Macs still have the benefit of just not getting viruses, no matter what you click on. And, as others have noted, I've used Macs for 20+ years and never had one crash. I know which way I'd go.
BJ Bignell
Je n'aurai plus peur
I recently started considering buying a new iMac, as I could dual-boot it to XP for work (no choice there, I'm afraid) and then run OSX for my personal time.
What I strongly suggest is that you spend some time on a Mac before buying one. Find a friend who has a similar model to what you are considering, and spend a couple of nights there.
Take your M8, download the photos, organise them, work with them. Try surfing the Internet, try to find files on the hard drive to upload to the gallery here, etc. Everything you see a pretty button or a bright colour, click on it (or at the very least, ask your friend what it's for). I suspect that you'll find that there are a lot of behaviours in the Mac OS that do not directly mimic your familiar Windows environment. Learn the keyboard a bit, too; it's not quite the same.
Finally, do a thorough analysis of the applications you use (not just everyday, but the occaisonal ones, too). Find out if they exist for Mac, and if not, what the alternatives are. If you have any email that is not web-based, you'll need to migrate your email archives and contact lists. You'll need to migrate your photos/photo library, your Word documents, etc...
And, finally, don't wipe your old Windows PC clean until you're CERTAIN that you've copied all of your files over. Losing data sucks.
Let us know how it goes.
What I strongly suggest is that you spend some time on a Mac before buying one. Find a friend who has a similar model to what you are considering, and spend a couple of nights there.
Take your M8, download the photos, organise them, work with them. Try surfing the Internet, try to find files on the hard drive to upload to the gallery here, etc. Everything you see a pretty button or a bright colour, click on it (or at the very least, ask your friend what it's for). I suspect that you'll find that there are a lot of behaviours in the Mac OS that do not directly mimic your familiar Windows environment. Learn the keyboard a bit, too; it's not quite the same.
Finally, do a thorough analysis of the applications you use (not just everyday, but the occaisonal ones, too). Find out if they exist for Mac, and if not, what the alternatives are. If you have any email that is not web-based, you'll need to migrate your email archives and contact lists. You'll need to migrate your photos/photo library, your Word documents, etc...
And, finally, don't wipe your old Windows PC clean until you're CERTAIN that you've copied all of your files over. Losing data sucks.
Let us know how it goes.
triplefinger
Well-known
I am a long time mac user, love the interface and have a 20" iMac & a powerbook. both sides(windows & mac) are sure to do this or that better. that said, I LOVE my macs, have used plenty of PCs and think mac is the way to go... 2 things. wait for the upcoming convention(read an above post) and when you do buy your new iMac, get at least 2GB of RAM.
cheers, MIke
cheers, MIke
triplefinger
Well-known
other windows emu softy.
other windows emu softy.
http://www.codeweavers.com/products/cxmac/
this is of interest to INTEL MAC users as well, you don't need windows to run windows apps, it's pretty young but interesting!
M.
other windows emu softy.
http://www.codeweavers.com/products/cxmac/
this is of interest to INTEL MAC users as well, you don't need windows to run windows apps, it's pretty young but interesting!
M.
nightfly said:
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eli griggs
Well-known
Believe it or not...
Believe it or not...
I am typing this on an Intel Macbook and have both OS X and XP Pro loaded on this machine and I use a 'live' Linux OS on CD, giving me three computers in one.
The XP I need for school, as a lot of the course work on disk is dedicated to the Windows platform.
I also run Access and Word/Works and did most of my Windows Intro to Computers (Office) work and all my testing on this machine; all of which worked as well or better than on any' regular' pc I've ever worked on.
I doubt you'll have any trouble running Windows programs on your Mac, though you will likely want a Windows mouse, USB or Bluetooth, for scrolling and the second button, as many people don't like to give right click commands on the keyboard. Personally, I'm fine with either.
Even though I don't own a Leica, (donations accepted Thursdays and Fridays, 9AM - 7PM) I do recommend an Intel Apple as the best bang-for-the-buck platform going, IMO.
Eli
Believe it or not...
I am typing this on an Intel Macbook and have both OS X and XP Pro loaded on this machine and I use a 'live' Linux OS on CD, giving me three computers in one.
The XP I need for school, as a lot of the course work on disk is dedicated to the Windows platform.
I also run Access and Word/Works and did most of my Windows Intro to Computers (Office) work and all my testing on this machine; all of which worked as well or better than on any' regular' pc I've ever worked on.
I doubt you'll have any trouble running Windows programs on your Mac, though you will likely want a Windows mouse, USB or Bluetooth, for scrolling and the second button, as many people don't like to give right click commands on the keyboard. Personally, I'm fine with either.
Even though I don't own a Leica, (donations accepted Thursdays and Fridays, 9AM - 7PM) I do recommend an Intel Apple as the best bang-for-the-buck platform going, IMO.
Eli
kmack
do your job, then let go
BJ Bignell said:
Good Advice.
I program on Solaris at work and went Mac for my home use three years ago.
My wife is Windows only. She often has trouble when she has to use my Mac, simply because the Mac OS just works diffferently.
It's the little stuff that will cause trouble and consternation.
nightfly
Well-known
If you have an Apple Store near you, go and play with one. Bring your camera and grab a geek to help you out.
The one here in New York in Soho is always packed but you can snag a machine and play with it for awhile and many of the other users are pretty cute which doesn't hurt. People seem to come by to check their email and whatever and use it like an internet cafe.
I've always used a Mac but some PC people I know who have tried them, can't really get the hang of it and throw their hands up in disgust.
I've had three Apple Powerbooks over the last 10 years and one desktop and they've all been really good to me however GET APPLECARE especially if you get a laptop. If anything goes wrong with the screen, which happens, the $300 or so you spend is well worth it. For a desktop not so much unless it comes with a screen like an iMac.
I think the 24" iMac's could be a serious work computer, not just a toy especially as external hardrives are so cheap and the chips are plenty fast. Two gigs of ram and an external firewire drive and you are set for probably 3 years before you need to upgrade anything. I don't think the real Pro Desktops are worth it unless you are doing some serious video or animation work.
The one here in New York in Soho is always packed but you can snag a machine and play with it for awhile and many of the other users are pretty cute which doesn't hurt. People seem to come by to check their email and whatever and use it like an internet cafe.
I've always used a Mac but some PC people I know who have tried them, can't really get the hang of it and throw their hands up in disgust.
I've had three Apple Powerbooks over the last 10 years and one desktop and they've all been really good to me however GET APPLECARE especially if you get a laptop. If anything goes wrong with the screen, which happens, the $300 or so you spend is well worth it. For a desktop not so much unless it comes with a screen like an iMac.
I think the 24" iMac's could be a serious work computer, not just a toy especially as external hardrives are so cheap and the chips are plenty fast. Two gigs of ram and an external firewire drive and you are set for probably 3 years before you need to upgrade anything. I don't think the real Pro Desktops are worth it unless you are doing some serious video or animation work.
jamesj
Well-known
funny story, my boss went to go do some side work for our tribal newspaper. Well they just got some new Mac pros well, the people didnt know how to use them so they just let them sit there, well my boss goes in there and she hasnt touched a mac in years. she goes in there and doesnt know how to open the cd drive, she asks the other people in the office they dont know how to do it either, then they call the tech people and they dont know how, they even get to the point where they have to pry open the drive bay...i felt really sad for that machine. Well she calls me on my cell and asks me, i really dont understand what she is talking about so i go over, so she tells me to drive over and help her...So i end up going over for like 2 seconds and pressing a button and opening it like magic!
amateriat
We're all light!
Not much I can add here...
I've worked with Macs for about twelve years, which should probably say all there is to say. I might also say that my current Macs (mid-period G4 tower, PowerBook G3 "Pismo", both loaded to the gills with RAM and such), are hardly the fastest things in the world any more, but are rock-solid in daily, heavy use, including a ton of PS work (better an olde Mac than a newer PC, IMO). The other thing about Macs is that, inthe event something does go awry, it's often no rocket science to sort it out – since I'm a freelance Mac (and occasionally, Wintel) tech, I can't describe how much easier life with the Mac is, even on the odd occasion where one of mine freaks out.
And, with the advent of the Intel-processor Macs that can "switch-hit", even someone who relies heavily on a few Windows apps has a serious alternative to just buying another PC. It's as good a time to switch as any. In your shoes, I'd spring for a Mac Pro (or at least a used G5 tower, just for the ease in component upgrading downthe line. Failing that, the big iMac is very nice.
- Barrett
I've worked with Macs for about twelve years, which should probably say all there is to say. I might also say that my current Macs (mid-period G4 tower, PowerBook G3 "Pismo", both loaded to the gills with RAM and such), are hardly the fastest things in the world any more, but are rock-solid in daily, heavy use, including a ton of PS work (better an olde Mac than a newer PC, IMO). The other thing about Macs is that, inthe event something does go awry, it's often no rocket science to sort it out – since I'm a freelance Mac (and occasionally, Wintel) tech, I can't describe how much easier life with the Mac is, even on the odd occasion where one of mine freaks out.
And, with the advent of the Intel-processor Macs that can "switch-hit", even someone who relies heavily on a few Windows apps has a serious alternative to just buying another PC. It's as good a time to switch as any. In your shoes, I'd spring for a Mac Pro (or at least a used G5 tower, just for the ease in component upgrading downthe line. Failing that, the big iMac is very nice.
- Barrett
photogdave
Shops local
dpetrzelka said:
Another myth that needs debunking is that macs are expensive. Considering the software that comes bundled with every mac and their overall longevity, I would say any mac will offer twice the dollar value of a PC. I still have an iMac I bought six years ago that's running the most current OS with Adobe Creative Suite etc and it works perfectly fine. I have no use for it but I can't bring myself to ged rid of a perfectly functioning computer! In the same time I've owned this iMac, most of my PC using friends have replaced their entire system two or three times! In the long run they have spent WAY more on their computers!
Tim Gray
Well-known
I don't want to contribute to a flame war on windows/mac (I've used macs for years and am happy with them). That being said I think the iMacs are a good package for the money. Think about if you really need all the expandability of the mac pro (or any desktop) before you spend the extra cash.
If you like they way they work, they are great computers. If you are really into the way Windows works, then you won't like them.
No matter what computer you end up getting, I would think about picking up a Dell monitor. You can save a pretty hefty chunk of change for a very nice monitor. Might not be as adjustable as the apple displays (I think adjusting brightness can be a pain on the dells), but they are pretty much the same LCD and are very nice.
If you like they way they work, they are great computers. If you are really into the way Windows works, then you won't like them.
No matter what computer you end up getting, I would think about picking up a Dell monitor. You can save a pretty hefty chunk of change for a very nice monitor. Might not be as adjustable as the apple displays (I think adjusting brightness can be a pain on the dells), but they are pretty much the same LCD and are very nice.
Topdog1
Well-known
Ok, ok, the religious zealots have beaten me down. What answer did you expect on a photo forum, since the MAC has been the standard for design work for years.
In any case, the dual boot guys are right. You don't have to run a virtualizer, you can just boot the OS of choice. That makes it somewhat moot what you buy.
Don't listen to the hardware nay-sayers. Everyone can report hdw problems with everything. It's the nature of the beast. My iBook just crapped out and the repair place said, "Oh, yeah, didn't you know they had defective logic boards and by the way, your warranty just expired". We use the Shuttle PC at work and over 250 of them work just fine every day. Someone on the forum just complained about a dead M8 - you not going to buy an M8 because of that?
I'll just say that the important thing is having dual monitors. Most people have never experienced that. Believe me - that will change the way you work more than which platform you have. Get dual monitors.
/Ira
In any case, the dual boot guys are right. You don't have to run a virtualizer, you can just boot the OS of choice. That makes it somewhat moot what you buy.
Don't listen to the hardware nay-sayers. Everyone can report hdw problems with everything. It's the nature of the beast. My iBook just crapped out and the repair place said, "Oh, yeah, didn't you know they had defective logic boards and by the way, your warranty just expired". We use the Shuttle PC at work and over 250 of them work just fine every day. Someone on the forum just complained about a dead M8 - you not going to buy an M8 because of that?
I'll just say that the important thing is having dual monitors. Most people have never experienced that. Believe me - that will change the way you work more than which platform you have. Get dual monitors.
/Ira
visiondr
cyclic iconoclast
Jorge, as stated previously, wait until after MacWorld next week.
The iMac is a very speedy, capable machine. You'll never have to worry about crazy Windows viruses, spyware, malware... etc, again.
Ron
The iMac is a very speedy, capable machine. You'll never have to worry about crazy Windows viruses, spyware, malware... etc, again.
Ron
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Topdog1
Well-known
visiondr said:
You MAC guys are 10 years behind the times, just like Leica.
Yes, plug-and-play. Windows has done that for years. I have dual monitors, a Skype USB phone, a Davis wireless weather system, and 2 USB printers plugged in to my Shuttle PC, among miscellaneous digital cameras and an iPod, and they were all literally plug-and-play. /Ira
Topdog1
Well-known
...and I don't get viruses either.