To postpone archival washing 'til "later"...

[Joakim Målare]

Hey there,

I don't print very often and when I do, several days pass between sessions. Since I don't have water in my darkroom, I need to rig the washing tank in the shower every time for properly washing the fiber papers. This takes a little time and isn't very convenient, besides taking up space for a couple of hours (requires planning considering I'm not living alone).

Would it be unwise to just have the prints swimming for a while in water after being fixed and hang them dry at the end of session, then at the end of the week (or maybe even a couple of weeks later) do the real washing using the tank?

The fixing ingredients would stay and dry into the paper in the meantime, but does that mean the fixer will bond harder to the fibers?

Thanks,
Joakim

 

[oftheherd]

Personally I would prefer not to. You might look into a fixer removal to place in the water. It takes less water then.

 

[ZorkiKat]

Letting the residual chems 'hang around' in the emulsion and paper base for a week or two may not be good. These may become more difficult to remove once these are allowed to dry. And in the interim period between initial wash and the subsequent thorough wash which follows days later, the harmful reactions with the retained reagents (the chems are there, ever reacting) will commence, and so in effect, what you wash later is already a print that has started deteriorating.

 

[Clint Troy]

I used to leave my fb prints in the washer full of water for a max of 3 days before proceeding to washing them thoroughly. All was ok.

 

[Roger Hicks]

Dear Joakim,

Don't. Depending on the paper, leaving them wet for as little as 48 hours can lead to the emulsion starting to come off or (with Art 300) even to paper base disintegration. Nor is drying them and re-washing them a good idea: yes, it will be harder (and may become impossible) to wash them.

Like others, I would recommend a wash aid, as this allows a full archival wash in little over half an hour (25 minutes running water time). The sequence is 5 minutes first wash; 10 minutes in wash aid; 20 minutes wash.

Working strength wash aid is 2% sodium sulphite, 0.2% EDTA. The mixed solution (whether commercial, e.g. Ilford) or home-made lasts for about a week.

Cheers,

R.

 

[sepiareverb]

I used to leave my fb prints in the washer full of water for a max of 3 days before proceeding to washing them thoroughly. All was ok.

Most all current papers will suffer from this treatment, rarely being able to be flattened even with a drymount press. I've had this happen with wet times in excess of 7 hours, ending up with prints that have creases around the edges. I suppose with a lot of hardener in the fix it might be more possible, but then washing becomes less possible. Manufacturers will tell you wet time should be kept to a minimum.

Drying unwashed prints is unwise as mentioned above. Residual fix dried into the paper is far more difficult to remove, getting to an archival wash would likely be impossible. Of course, some testing would be the best thing to do. A residual hypo test is simple enough.

 

[Joakim Målare]

Right, just as I thought, it would be a bad idea. But you never know 😉

I have never really used anything beyond the basic dev/stop/fix, such as wetting agent, hca, wash aid or toners (well, once), so I'm a bit of a newbie there. I do have a bag of Kodak HCA powder that I did intend to use - I guess now's the time.

Ilford suggests using their Washaid product for 10 minutes after an initial water rinse for 5 minutes, followed by a final 5 minute wash also in plain water. My question, can I use the Kodak HCA in the same way?

What IS the difference between the two, HCA and Washaid? I read somewhere that a little residual fixer makes the print more stable over time, so a hypo clearing agent was not really recommended...

All this hypo/fixer/washaid-or-not is a bit confusing methinks.

I'll most likely end up using the Ilford line of products pretty much exclusively further on since I've decided to support them as much as possible, but it's nice to work with what you've got and to actually know what you're doing...

 

[Roger Hicks]

Kodak's HCA is 2% sulphite again and contains 0.1% to 0.5% EDTA but adds 0.4% sodium metabisulphite and 0.1% to 0.5% sodium citrate (I presume for buffering), so yes, you can regard them as interchangeable. The idea that a little residual fixer makes the print more stable over time is disputable; Ilford unreservedly recommends Washaid with Art 300 and you can use it with everything else too.

Cheers,

R

 

[Clint Troy]

I still wash my prints for a whole hour after kodak Hypo clear. I don't trust the times they guve especially since the ilford washaid has been proven to go bad after a very short period of time. I wouldn't want to wash my fine prints for 5 minutes.

I usedto leave my prints in fresh water for a day or two in fresh water and all was perfecty fine. The prints are beautiful today, years later. After 2 days, though, the emulsion was starting to go bad.
My whole point was not to let the print to dry.

 

[Roger Hicks]

I still wash my prints for a whole hour after kodak Hypo clear. I don't trust the times they guve especially since the ilford washaid has been proven to go bad after a very short period of time. I wouldn't want to wash my fine prints for 5 minutes.

I usedto leave my prints in fresh water for a day or two in fresh water and all was perfecty fine. The prints are beautiful today, years later. After 2 days, though, the emulsion was starting to go bad.
My whole point was not to let the print to dry.

Why don't you trust them? Have you actually done any residual hypo tests? Likewise, what's 'a very short period of time', and in what was does it go bad? I'm not arguing: I'm just interested in the evidence you saw elsewhere, because Ilford are normally pretty straight. More washing won't do any harm to most FB papers, except wasting water, though if you use Art 300 (for me, the easy choice for fine art printing) it is definitely too long. Also, the Ilford Washaid sheet suggests 5+10+20 minutes: the 5 minutes is only the initial wash.

I completely agree that letting the partially-washed print dry would be unwise in the extreme.

Cheers,

R.

 

[rlouzan]

1) 2 hypo fixer baths 2:30min. each*
2) Holding tank or 5min wash.
3) Saline solution from pharmacy at 20 -21C during 10min.*.
4) 1 to 11/2 hours wash above 20C (don't place new prints in print washer)
5) Dry face down on clean mesh screens.

*1,5L for approx. 10 - 8x10" FB prints, discard after that.

 

[rlouzan]

Roger, I agree with Clint. It's not the same to wash your FB prints in a archival print washer than just letting them sit in a tub - as some people unfortunately do.

-Edited

 

[Roger Hicks]

. . . It's not the same to wash your FB prints in a archival print washer than just sitting in a tub - as some people unfortunately do.

You will find no argument from me on this topic. But equally, it doesn't matter how long you leave 'em in a tub if there's no water circulation.

Cheers,

R.

 

[rlouzan]

Hi,

Exactly my point, temperature and water circulation are crucial.

Regards,
Robert

You will find no argument from me on this topic. But equally, it doesn't matter how long you leave 'em in a tub if there's no water circulation.

Cheers,

R.

 

[Roger Hicks]

1) 2 hypo fixer baths 2:30min. each*
2) Holding tank or 5min wash.
3) Saline solution from pharmacy at 20 -21C during 10min.*.
4) 1 to 11/2 hours wash above 20C (don't place new prints in print washer)
5) Dry face down on clean mesh screens.

*1,5L for approx. 10 - 8x10" FB prints, discard after that.

Or film strength rapid fix (ammonium thiosulphate) @ 30 sec each.

Cheers,

R.

 

[MartinP]

I suppose someone should note that salty water is not a substitute for a washaid.

There was some internet story about sheet-film being washed on ships needing a shorter time using seawater, as compared to freshwater, which supposedly led to further research. The commercial washaids being described are not made of sodium chloride but of sodium sulphite, which is far more effective at turning the fixer by-products in to a more soluble (and hence more easily removed) compound.

Both Kodak and Ilford recommend just twenty minutes of washing after using their washaids for ten minutes (and a thorough water pre-rinse of several minutes). Without the washaids they suggest up to one hour.

 

[Roger Hicks]

I suppose someone should note that salty water is not a substitute for a washaid.

There was some internet story about sheet-film being washed on ships needing a shorter time using seawater, as compared to freshwater, which supposedly led to further research. The commercial washaids being described are not made of sodium chloride but of sodium sulphite, which is far more effective at turning the fixer by-products in to a more soluble (and hence more easily removed) compound.

Dear Martin,

Very true indeed. Yes, salt water displaces hypo faster, just as (counter-intuitively) hard water displaces it faster than soft water. But then you need to wash out the salt water or hard water...

Cheers,

R.

 

[sepiareverb]

Running residual silver and hypo tests is something I do every now and again just as a check. It is simple, and gives peace of mind that I'm not getting sloppy.

 

[Roger Hicks]

Running residual silver and hypo tests is something I do every now and again just as a check. It is simple, and gives peace of mind that I'm not getting sloppy.

If I'm worried about sloppiness, I just try to get sloppy in the right direction. Overexposure (for negs) rather than underexposure; overwashing rather than underwashing; usw.

Cheers,

R.

 

[rlouzan]

Not exactly, Permawash was invented/discovered by a chemist during his time in the US NAVY. The formula is pure seawater.
I don't claim that saline solution is a perfect washing aid, but I've even used it to remove gunk from some polaroid P/N emulsions.
My main concern is about not using a washing aid at all. Where I live Permawash, Sodium Sulphide ... are not readily available.

Regards,
Robert

I suppose someone should note that salty water is not a substitute for a washaid.

There was some internet story about sheet-film being washed on ships needing a shorter time using seawater, as compared to freshwater, which supposedly led to further research. The commercial washaids being described are not made of sodium chloride but of sodium sulphite, which is far more effective at turning the fixer by-products in to a more soluble (and hence more easily removed) compound.

Both Kodak and Ilford recommend just twenty minutes of washing after using their washaids for ten minutes (and a thorough water pre-rinse of several minutes). Without the washaids they suggest up to one hour.