To those complaining about the lack of a VF in the EP1...

uhligfd said:
Thank you, climbing_vine. I needed that.

Case in point: I tried to run around bifocaled and all the things I wrote about above did happen to me. You must be very lucky and resourceful, more so than that lazy condescending git I am. Sorry.
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Yes, you needed it as much as every person under the age of 50 on this forum needed to be told that they're shallow and don't understand how hard your life is because of your bifocals. Or that if people don't have your troubles, they must never be straying from "carpeted places".

No offense, but if you don't want someone to tell you you're full of it you shouldn't make sweeping generalizations. That's all. Sorry about your difficulties, but...
 
Tourist means cheap camera that really does not work like something decent. I had a P&S with LCD. Next to my 1955 Waltz Envoy with fixed 50 2.0 Nikkor, it was the only camera I intensly disliked.

I use my 4x5 with a darkcloth and that is acceptable and the P&S with a darkcloth and tripod. But get something that does better photos if you are going to go thru all that work.

My Leica screws, M,& R`s and Nikon Dslrs all fill the bill.
 
I've been wearing bi-focals for about 9 years now and except for the first afternoon with the first pair, they truly dont cause me any difficulties walking, hiking, stair climbing or descending.
In fact, one of the best ways to fall down is to consciously pay attention to every move you have to make while walking--at some point one should trust the body to do what it knows how to do and not think about it any more.
To bring this back close to topic, I love shooting TLRs and the biggest difference I find between those and using an LCD screen is that the TLR screen is usually very well shaded and I can see the image in bright light. With all the LCDs I've tried, if the ambient light is bright, all I see on the screen is a reflection of my ugly mug. I tend to stay on the back side of cameras so I can avoid that.
Which leads me to another thought: I did put one of those self adhesive screen protectors/shades on my current digi. The screen protector part was fine but the shade was mostly useless. If I could find a "chimney finder" type thing to put on the screen that would be very good, for me, I think.
Rob
 
Ronald M said:
Tourist means cheap camera that really does not work like something decent. I had a P&S with LCD. Next to my 1955 Waltz Envoy with fixed 50 2.0 Nikkor, it was the only camera I intensly disliked.

I use my 4x5 with a darkcloth and that is acceptable and the P&S with a darkcloth and tripod. But get something that does better photos if you are going to go thru all that work.

My Leica screws, M,& R`s and Nikon Dslrs all fill the bill.
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I'll bet you use the screen with that 4x5.
 
rbiemer said:
I've been wearing bi-focals for about 9 years now and except for the first afternoon with the first pair, they truly dont cause me any difficulties walking, hiking, stair climbing or descending.
In fact, one of the best ways to fall down is to consciously pay attention to every move you have to make while walking--at some point one should trust the body to do what it knows how to do and not think about it any more.
To bring this back close to topic, I love shooting TLRs and the biggest difference I find between those and using an LCD screen is that the TLR screen is usually very well shaded and I can see the image in bright light. With all the LCDs I've tried, if the ambient light is bright, all I see on the screen is a reflection of my ugly mug. I tend to stay on the back side of cameras so I can avoid that.
Which leads me to another thought: I did put one of those self adhesive screen protectors/shades on my current digi. The screen protector part was fine but the shade was mostly useless. If I could find a "chimney finder" type thing to put on the screen that would be very good, for me, I think.
Rob
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Rob, same here. I'm using progressives for about 9 years. It's at the point that with out glasses, I can see the screen but not details of what's on it....
With the glasses, I can see everything even close up....Progressives are the S*IT.....
don
 
Think about your digital shooting method & be honest with yourself.
I think you'll realise that most of you, who use a digital camera - rangefinder, SLR, compact - take a photo & then spend quite a while gawking at your screen to check exposure, focus, composition.
Why not gawk at your screen to focus, compose, with your histogram there in front of you & take the photo - all at once?!
I even see so called pro's do it at major sporting events - heads down, buried in their screens - instead of heads up, ready for the next opportunity.
 
bluey said:
Do you mean something like this HoodLoupe?
http://www.outbackphoto.com/CONTENT_2007_01/section_gear_cameras/20090317_HoodLoupe/index.html

Looks practical but I'm wondering if I could be happier with a bit of black cloth on a little folding "clothesline" and a pair of reading glasses.

The rigid HoodLoupe makes a small camera into a large one.
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Thanks for that link! That Hoodman would take care of most of my troubles using an LCD to compose on.
Got some other "stuff" I need/want first but I may give this a try.
Rob
 
Ben Blacket said:
Think about your digital shooting method & be honest with yourself.
I think you'll realise that most of you, who use a digital camera - rangefinder, SLR, compact - take a photo & then spend quite a while gawking at your screen to check exposure, focus, composition.
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I don't. Once I've got my exposure worked out, I tend to set my dSLR on manual and get to work. I don't bother to review my shots until and unless there is a break in the action or I need to change exposure due to changing conditions.

I'm sorry people are so weak-willed, but I'm not.

Why not gawk at your screen to focus, compose, with your histogram there in front of you & take the photo - all at once?!
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Because it is stupid and counterproductive.

The camera is braced much better when held to the eye than when held out at arm's length. Focus can be achieve much more quickly and accurately when an optical viewfinder is used, either a rangefinder or an SLR view screen. I hear a lot of people tell me how well then can focus manually on an EVF or on the back of an LCD. They're wrong. If they think that, they don't know how to focus, period.

I even see so called pro's do it at major sporting events - heads down, buried in their screens - instead of heads up, ready for the next opportunity.
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That's their problem. I don't share it.
 
I would tend to agree with you, Bill, about preferring to focus with the camera up to my eye. But I find the EVF on my G1 as easy, or easier, to determine optimal manual focus as my manual film SLR or rangefinders; this is without using the zoom-focus gimmick on the G1; the image in the EVF snaps into focus very obviously. Where it falls down is the lack of a focus scale on the modern lenses, when opting to hyperfocus. When I get my adapter for my old MD lenses we'll see how well that combination works with hyperfocusing.

As for not chimping between shots, I have my G1 set to 1 second chimp mode, to get a brief but adequate glimpse of the previous image in the EVF, enough to tell if I blew it or not but without interrupting the flow of shooting.

Myself, I can't comment on the talents of others' photographic skills; to do so would be mere opinion. ;)


~Joe
 
Yeah man...I love being a tourist...I am a tourist thru life....
....Being a tourist means that at the first days you have your perception and your bodies coordination levelled down to the abilities of a 4 year old and you try to regain your carefully built up stock of experience for the rest of your stay. This does include me.
It also makes you do tiresome and exhausting things (spending the early afternoon on the Beach at Rhodes) because you paid for the time.
....On the bright side finally you can wear clothes and headdress you would never dare to wear while at home! A nice light camera with terrific results would be a great thing....there's a pang of sympathy everytime I see people trying to dress as comfy as possible who haul a monstrous DSLR + Antitank lens around their necks.
And the greates horror of tourism are the tours as led by tourguides:"So for the next 30 minutes you have spare time! We'll met then at the ferry station!"
 
Here's the thing that I notice, and I wonder if there are any mind/eye studies that document what I detect in myself:

When I compose on the screen, I often miss details in the background (or the foreground, if that's what I think about) and those details often lower the quality of the image.

When I compose through a VF, even in a split second, I compose and compensate for details in the background and foreground. I think it may be the more 3d, my-eye-looking-around-inside-the-image effect, as opposed to looking at an image. Whatever the case, I find a difference in the two ways of shooting. And my pics are better when I look through a VF, not at a screen.

Anyone care to offer a psuedo-scientific arm chair explanation?
 
I found the EVF on the G1 to be completely useless, other than to save some battery life and reduce glare. A smaller lcd screen that has less resolution bothers me, so I probably will never use it if they make one for EP-1 or 2. The rangerfinder has always been the faster lighter alternative to the SLR for me, and I see the lack of traditional view finder as a natural evolution. Long term, the view finder will most likely dissappear since most new kids learning to shoot are using their soccer mom's camera, and are just used to composing with the large LCD. There might be some novelty in using a small view finder 20-30 years from now, much like film is today. For me, I've always had the habit of either aiming with both eyes open, or pre-focus on a spot/distance and just point the camera in the general direction when the object was near. So the idea of viewing through a magic window so to speak, just isn't my style. I haven't gotten used to the auto-focus on the Pen yet, so I've been using the manual assist, which is pretty cool once you get the hang of popping in and out of zoom mode.
 
I'm on the Pen with the 17mm and just ordered the VF.
It's my quest for the comfort zone of my M4 and Cron.
The screen works great on this camera but I have to try the finder.
I hear tell it's very accurate and this caused me to try it.

The camera is very fast and with the finder, hopefully it will get me to my comfort zone.
My only fear is that the camera may look to Professional...
That's a no. No for me....
Don
 
For me composing with the lcd is a very positive experience. Composing that way is much easier than using the view finder. I instantly see if a composition works or not. That's not always the case when using the view finder. I learned this from using the Canon G10. Now I even use the live view of my 40D more often, especially from the tripod.
Disadvantage is, that you can't hold the camera so steady at armlength.

Sometimes it's good to look like a tourist. Some weeks ago I spotted a run down office building of the Sinn Fein Party (the party that is said to have connections to the IRA) in Dublin. I took a few photos with my DSLR. A guy who walked along the street saw me, stopped a few meters away and looked what I was doing. When I proceeded, he follwed me. I didn't feel so good so I stopped at the next road crossing, took the travel guide out of the bag and looked intensively for the street names. After that I was probably identified as a harmless tourist and the guy went on and left me alone.
 
I have only 2/10 vision in my left eye, and have astigmatism in both eyes; far-sighted in both eyes, plus recently-acquired reading glasses to add to the confusion. I can usually live with the optical viewfinders in DSLRs, but current EVFs are just not up to it for me. The composing and framing with LCD surely feels awkward, but it seems to be working for me. If someone thinks I'm a tourist, fine... If I wanted to look like a pro photographer, I would probably be using a D3 with 70-200 or 24-70. And get spinal problems... (They are wonderful options, just too heavy for the street.)

Cheers,

Guven
 
Looking like a tourist. That's me even at paid events.
The Pen looks like an old film camera. It's easy to blend in with the scene.
The finder arrived and it's ok. Very fast to work with.
I still take it off sometimes just to use the screen.
That's a great way to see in 2 dimensions...
 
It's actually easy to focus. I have handled one. I suggest a trip to your local camera shop.


peterm1 said:
This is an issue that really divides people. I would not buy one for this reason even though the camera is very nicely built. In particular one of the attractions is that in theory the camera can mount Leica M glass with adapters. But I cannot conceive of how I could focus the bloody thing while using two hands to hold the camera at arms length. (I am yet to grow a third arm.) For me its out.
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