Today I Disassembled "The Hard Bone"

[ruben]

Today I disassembled the Kiev lower drum of the curtains compound, which is the one including the springs, whose tension determine most of the softness of the whole shutter action, and the softness of our cameras.

A photo of this part can be seen at Henry Sherer's site:

http://www.zeisscamera.com/Contax/Tech2.html#Shutter Tension

just above the title "The Propper Lubricants". BTW what you are seeing there is not the whole drum, but the inner part after another surrounding drum was already disassembled. This later outer drum is the one to which the curtain is engaged.

For this I used my first purchased Kiev, which since long ago is just a parts Kiev, and since short ago it is rather some remaining parts from and ex-Kiev. In order to extract this lower drum, I didn't studied the right proceeding and instead went to a plain crude use of scissors, hammer and force. At the Kiev project we are not going to fiddle at all with this part, but just clean, lubricate and re-adjust its tension.

My intention in today's disassembling was just to inspect this part to determine from the inside if my CLA of it, already performed on other of my Kievs, is reasonable or not.

My biggest surprise was.... Ok, now I get bets from you: is it a stupid basic spring compound, or rather a sophysticated German piece of engineering ? Close your eyes for 30 seconds and bet..........

The answer is the first. It is an extremely stupid, basic, springs compound, with a central rod as it axis, two separated springs at each side of the rod, two aluminium drums covering it, leaving a central space of the rod free for a third spring, covered in its turn by the bigger outer drum to which the curtain is assembled. Mr Sherer's pic give us a false impression, but I am sure it was not his intention.

My conclusions:
a) The hard issue is not CLA of this part, provided we do not disassemble it. And we are not going to. We can deal with it for CLA.

b) My drum and its parts were fully entire and corrosion free. The camera is, was, a Kiev 1971. If any spring or drum was damaged, this would call for a repairman. Not for our level.

c) Perhaps very old Kievs may have there some corrosion, and in that case, if our CLA will not help, we will have to send the camera to repair for replacing parts As I said the hard issue is to engage this whole compound to the body chasis, the tapes and the curtain.

d) The CLA we are going to exercise MUST start from our clear assesment that the camera we are working on is not jammed, or broken. Or the contrary. The first milestone for this it the test I refered to at "The Kiev Project - Part 1". Once we will contrast this type of test to the same test we will perform after CLA, we will be able to determine about any Kiev if the camera just needed CLA or is broken and needs Repair. Or if it has been canibalized, in whose case we may or may not be able to restore it to propper work, according to what we have.

e) MOST of the chances with our stiff Kievs, and here I cannot speak on behalf of Cotaxes out of ignorancy, is that they are not jammed or broken at all, and our CLA will bring new life for them, and for us.

Cheers,
Ruben

PS
Kindly enable me to add another conclusion: Ignorancy is our wort enemy. Research our best friend.

 

[TVphotog]

Still in the process of purchasing one for this project. I have my eye on a 1960 4A, but have yet to pull the trigger. I may just start with my 2A... Onward HO!!!!!

 

[zuikologist]

Ruben - good luck with this. Way beyond my capabilities.

 

[ruben]

Hi Zuikologist,

I think I have been misleading with this thread, and got by you the opposite result. Nevertheless, when we get started you always can watch and see.

Cheers,
Ruben

 

[mike goldberg]

Kindly enable me to add another conclusion: Ignorance is our worst enemy.
Research our best friend.

Ruben, I fully agree with the wisdom above... v'gam, ata haser li.
Cheers, mike

 

[TVphotog]

Hey Ruben, I replied to your PM, but it told me your inbox was too full. My 2A is okay, but it could be better. The shutter is much better now that I replaced it with a better one from a 3A. It just needs a general overall really, really, really good cleaning. Hopefully, with this project it will get one. The 4A that I am looking at is a 1960 vintage. It should be good to start with.

 

[ruben]

Hey Ruben, I replied to your PM, but it told me your inbox was too full. My 2A is okay, but it could be better. The shutter is much better now that I replaced it with a better one from a 3A. It just needs a general overall really, really, really good cleaning. Hopefully, with this project it will get one. The 4A that I am looking at is a 1960 vintage. It should be good to start with.

Space for PMs cleared.

TV, if you replace Kiev shutters, I doubt I really have much to offer you on the technical side, besides the opportunity to compare what you do with what I do, and offer your suggestions. Nevertheless it is my hope a lot of discussions will be arised, from which we all can profit. My aim is first of all the beginners, to enable them enjoy reasonable accurate and highly softened Kievs.

Therefore, regarding the purchase or non purchase of a training camera, in your case specially, follow your instincts.

Cheers,
Ruben

 

[TVphotog]

Hey Ruben, I grew up in an engineering family. Granpa was a shipwright, Dad worked in Aerospace and I have an engineering physics degree, which I have never used... Not to brag, but I completely tore apart two Zorki 4Ks just to figure out how to fix the dang things and it took two to figure out how to put them back together. Anyway, I decided to participate in 'The Project' if for no other reason than the educational aspects of it. I believe that I am going to purchase the 4A and donate the body to science. This should be a fun journey. Nothing better than getting your hands dirty and being able to pull back and say
'I did that, it works cause I fixed it... and there are no extra parts left over'😛

Ken

 

[ruben]

Hey Ruben, I grew up in an engineering family. Granpa was a shipwright, Dad worked in Aerospace and I have an engineering physics degree, which I have never used... Not to brag, but.....
Ken

Hi Ken,
That being the case let's see who in you family ingrained in you the element of patience, as you are going to need it in a project aimed to beginners.

Cheers,
Ruben


BTW in your case I would bet that the prospective Kiev 4a to purchase will not end in a donation for science but in your first Kiev 4A-n. "N" standing for new type, a type not seen yet around, nor in its elegance, nor in its smoothness, nor in its attachments.

I myself am fighting hard day after day from abstaining to purchase two highly appealing 4Ms: one for its low price the other for its beauty, both for their nice old age:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...K:MEWA:IT&viewitem=&item=7589566989&rd=1&rd=1

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...MEWA:IT&viewitem=&item=170100209433&rd=1&rd=1

My ill intention in airing those is the hope some fellows around will be tempted and take them away from my eyes. Although both models being metered, and threfore harder to disassemble, are not very suitable for the Kiev Project.

Cheers,
Ruben

 

[manfromh]

Since there are many Kiev threads anyway, I figured I'd ask in this one, since it deals with dissassembly.
The meter in my Kiev-4m isnt working. I was thinking of replacing the top plate with the one from my 4a (which needs new parts anyway). Removing the top plate on the 4a isnt a problem, but im not sure how to deal with the 4m. Whats under there meter? Can I just lift it off with the top plate?

Matis

 

[Spyderman]

Matis: the lifting of the top of metered 4 is as easy as non metered 4. The entire meter is in the top, and there are no wires that you'd have to resolder. The only difference is that the rewind knob is of different construction and you'll have to swap the cylinder in which the rewind knob is seated. The cylinder is screwed to the body from inside the film chamber with 3 screws. After you swap these parts it should be easy to swap the top plates...

Good luck.

 

[manfromh]

Matis: the lifting of the top of metered 4 is as easy as non metered 4. The entire meter is in the top, and there are no wires that you'd have to resolder. The only difference is that the rewind knob is of different construction and you'll have to swap the cylinder in which the rewind knob is seated. The cylinder is screwed to the body from inside the film chamber with 3 screws. After you swap these parts it should be easy to swap the top plates...

Good luck.

Thanks! Though today I noticed that the front plate is sort of "sunken in" under the meter. This might leave a hole in the body with a new top plate. Maybe I can gently bend it. Hmm...

 

[ruben]

Ruben - good luck with this. Way beyond my capabilities.

Ok estimated Zuikologist, now I have found some spare time to write a more detailed answer.

First, I have no idea if you happen to be specially attracted by Kievs and Contaxes, or not. I will assume you are. In the case you are not, then be this post on behalf of others with the same feeling of "way beyond my capabilities".

My posting above about the "hard bone" has been very misleading in what I want most, i, e, make things easy for those who feel like you. My mistake was entangling within a discussion with the current high technical Kiev/Contax authorities. Obviously upon this post, many fellows may have been feeling like you. Yes, I did a mistake, from which I hope to learn and not repeat.

Now I would like to put in simple words the general sense of the issue I was talking, and why instead of bringing bad news for you it should do the opposite, provided I can better explain it.

My Kiev venture started some three years ago, quite close to the fall of the Russian Camera User forum of "Beststuff", and the birth of the Kiev Survival Site. Since then bit by bit I have been trying with little success to make the Kiev a friendly camera, instead of a cumbersome and stiff one.

I tryied to oil it, then to grease it, but no big leap forward. The Kievs i own remained a camera to watch at, but every time I tried to make it a daily user, I rejected the idea even before trying. Except for a short trip to Istambul, in which I took my Kievs and went crazy between the tension of so many opportunities and so slow and cumbersome manipulation.

The leap forward came by accident, through a Fed 2 I purchased from Oleg. The camera came in an outstanding shape of silence and smoothness. Comparing it with another nice average Fed 2 I own, it became very obvious to me that beyond oil and grease, Oleg performed a CURTAIN DISTENSIONING. In order to test it I started to distension my non-Oleg Fed and achieved almost similar results. Of course in the case of this non-Oleg Fed I am sure I made a disaster in terms of accuracy, but this wasn't my aim anyway. I was thinking about the Kievs.

My mind went blown away. I applyied this to several Kievs and they softened to unimaginable extremes. And it happens to be much more easy, extremely easy to distension a Kiev, than a Leica-like camera, due to the way the Kiev curtains operate.

But then, trying to find more info, I read Henry Sherer's site and went frozen by fear. Fortunately I found the way to go around his warnings, against the "do it at home". And hereby my way prompting me to open the Kiev Project.

If we do not fully disassemble the shutter components, but properly clean them and lubricate, then there is no risk to put the shutter out of order, and have a creamy-like shutter and camera. This also involves a direct distension action of the "hard bone", i, e, a screw of some component regulating the tension of the springs.

It was in order to further examine this component, and be more assured of where are we going with the project, that I decided to disection it. At the Kiev Project we will not fiddle at all with this component, "the hard bone". My above first posting was a kind of "victory" shout, towards a small narrow minded elite of folks leaving us to our own fate. Within that shout I forgot the most important: you and people like you.

As a matter of pure gossip, this "hard bone" turned to be a rather soft bubble gum. The real issue is if we are to fully disassemble it and start to rebuild all the surrounding components, as I assume Mr Sherer does, according to his own words. (*)

We can confidently bypass these issues, if we abstain from a full and total disassemble and content ourselves with a basic primary disassemble of the camera. A good cleaning and a good lubrication, plus that curtain distension. And all these together with film tests before, during and after, enabling us to regulate our work.

A basic primary disassemble of the camera is not to be taken for granted as easy breakfast for a beginner. Yet on the other hand you can count with me that I will take you step by step in such a detailed and slow motion way, that many folks more experienced may loose their patience rather quickly. I repeat, you can count with me, as in contrast to our friend Ken, I have been not raised at all in a gear minded family, and have been a beginner myself one, two years ago.

My aim in this project is not to battle myself, nor to gain popularity, but something much bigger and important. Providing the means for every one of the line to make his Kiev a first class camera, in practice. The potential is already there.

None of us is going to pay a Western CLA fix, with a tag price with which we could buy some 6 to 8 good Kievs. Alhough there is not a bad idea at all to purchase an Oleg Kiev, or send him one for his small fee CLA. But what with those of us having already several Kievs ? What we can do when Oleg hasn't a Kiev for sale ? And what with those of us wanting to control these cameras ? They are not electronic, but plain mechanical, logical, easy to understand once we are provided the means to.

Now, don't feel obliged to participate, although I promise to do my best to tempt you and everyone else by all means available. Very few will really do it. Others may follow suit or not, according to what these few will achieve and report.

Cheers,
Ruben

(*) We also could take into account the possibility of a dramatic difference between a 1940 Contax and a 1960 Kiev, in terms of hardened old grease. According to Mr Sherer's own words, Contaxes left their factory lubricated with organic mamiferous oil and grease. I don't think this was the situation after the War. Besides there is the possibility of the less accurate built Kiev parts, playing in our favour, against the German hand crafted old Contaxes. High accuracy built parts means less free space between them. Soviet shortened manufacturing process means more free space between parts.

Besides, most of the Kievs around are more young than the pre war Contaxes, including many relatively very very young.

The hard FACT is that the 1971 "hard bone" I dissected, and when I say "hard bone" you can read it as "the key element" was in a shape of like new out of the factory.

 

[TVphotog]

Hey Ruben, you stated my point much more eloquently that I. I think my reasoning for tearing apart my Kievs is just like yours. There are no electronics, just simple springs and gears. I should be able to take it apart and put it back together again, just because of that. In fact, the bug bit hard tonight. The Kiev 2A mentioned above, is once again a pile of parts. I leave for Las Vegas on a business trip sunday. I hope to have it back together again to take with me. We will see!!!! Don't worry, you will not bore me on this voyage, nor will you move too slowly. I suspect, that you have much to teach us.

 

[Spyderman]

Ruben,

you made me do something mad. All your posts about smoothening Kievs encouraged me to try to smoothen also my Kiev.


I washed the shutter mechanism in naphta to dissolve all the old dried grease, and after drying I spraed it with a PTFE lubricant. Right now as I'm writing this post the Kiev is drying from the spray lubricant and I hope the thin PTFE coat that remains on all parts will make a good "primer" lubrication. I will add later some more synthetic grease.

I also tried the trick with the "hard bone". I completely distensioned the shutter while counting the turns... I was quite shocked that I counted to number 10 ! Yes 10. I then retensioned it back to 6 turns (which is still more than Mr. Scherer recommends, but for the crude soviet manufactured camera it might be OK).

EDIT: When I was already at it I also removed the self-timer and the flash sync connector. Two things that none ever uses.


I'd like to ask one question: what type of grease (what viscosity) would you recommend for lubricating all the shutter cocking and film advancing gears? And how to apply it? Maybe with a syringe? I have some very thin synthetic grease for lubricating bike suspension forks that could be applied by a syringe... but maybe a thicker grease would be better... What do you think ?

 

[darkkavenger]

Your work is very interesting Ruben, I wish you a lot of success! I'm quite a clumsy "bricoleur" myself, so I will not try opening a camera again, and I must thank Ondrej (Spyderman) for the wonderful job he did on my Fed-3b (not to mention his transplant of an I61 in Contax mount).

I'm looking forward to have my Contaxes overhauled soon, and also to find a way to remove fungus on a 135/4 Sonnar. Not that I'm lazy, I would have less problems taking stuff apart than rebuilding.

Honestly, I'm more of a "Kefitzat Haderech" adept than a repairman. 😉

 

[zhang xk]

Hello Ruben,

I fully agree with your points, especially that for a professional CLA that could cost many Kiev 2,3,4,and 5. Why spent many hundred USD for a $20 Kiev?Why give the feeling of great satisfaction to others?
I have serviced many Kievs myself, and now I consider myself a semi-professional.😀 😱 Since I spent the last 2-3 years on vintage watches, I almost forget how to disassemble&assemble a Kiev 2-4, and now I find servicing a simple manual wind Swiss watch much easier than a Contax-Kiev.
However, since a Kiev is a mechanical device, it is quite serviceable and It is great fun. I believe that most stiff Kievs could be made smooth after a proper service except those with defective or low quality parts.

Cheers,

Zhang

 

[ruben]

Ruben,

you made me do something mad. All your posts about smoothening Kievs encouraged me to try to smoothen also my Kiev.


I washed the shutter mechanism in naphta to dissolve all the old dried grease, and after drying I spraed it with a PTFE lubricant. Right now as I'm writing this post the Kiev is drying from the spray lubricant and I hope the thin PTFE coat that remains on all parts will make a good "primer" lubrication. I will add later some more synthetic grease.

I also tried the trick with the "hard bone". I completely distensioned the shutter while counting the turns... I was quite shocked that I counted to number 10 ! Yes 10. I then retensioned it back to 6 turns (which is still more than Mr. Scherer recommends, but for the crude soviet manufactured camera it might be OK).

EDIT: When I was already at it I also removed the self-timer and the flash sync connector. Two things that none ever uses.


I'd like to ask one question: what type of grease (what viscosity) would you recommend for lubricating all the shutter cocking and film advancing gears? And how to apply it? Maybe with a syringe? I have some very thin synthetic grease for lubricating bike suspension forks that could be applied by a syringe... but maybe a thicker grease would be better... What do you think ?

Hy Spyderman,
After all the process you have done I strongly recomend 2 further steps before final greasing:

a) Use the highest magnification device you can achieve and give a good look at the thooth wheels.

b) In case you still have dirt between the teeth, then get a rough (hard) painting brush for beginners, or something of the like, and cut it half a centimeter from its base, as to have a good between the teeth cleaner. Use home alcohol or Isopropil alcohol in case dry brushing is not enough.

c) If you have used the final wet cleaning with the shortened brush, then you may have splashed dirt all around. No problem, another immersion of the shutter compound within a bath of alcohol.

d) In order to allow the the ribbons to dry, extend them from the lower drum side and put anything to hold them extended and out, such a piece of sponge, plastic watever.

As for the kind of grease, beyond the one recommended at the KSS, I have no idea. I work in a printshop, where I asked for the best type of grease and this is what I use - but for our purpose it doesn't matter:

The amount of grease should be minimum of the minimum, imagining a micronic layer of grease covering all moving parts. As for the instruments - there are no real instruments but METHOD. Sometimes you will use your smallest finger, and for intricate parts you may use a tooth wooden stick, but always almost invisible amounts.

The idea is not to try to paint all the gears with grease at a single strike, but leave a minimal amount at one or two spots per wheel, and then wind and fire, wind and fire, dozens of times G E N T L Y, not looking at TV but feeling the camera, feeling the winding. I strongly recommend to change in progressive and regressive order the shutter speeds, let's say after 10 firings at 1/1000, you change to 1/500 for another 10 windings and firing, etc.

For the sake of safety in not damaging both ends of each curtain, where they meet and engage, I propose to divide the greasing into two stages. Stage 1 with the back chasis open you will deal with the gears uncovered by the chasis. Stage 2, after you are done here, close the chasis and start greasing the upper gears around the winding knob. In both stages you will discovering more and more moving parts to grease. Everything that moves should be greased.

When you are done and your camera fully re-assembled, you will not be really done. You will have to carry the camera with you everywhere, even if it is only to work, or in case you are a student at home just to the bathroom. Shoot some 1 to infinity shots per day. This way the grease will further expand and all components of the camera will find their inner harmony.

During that month you will see by yourself that the camera is changing and things not so soft today will became further soft, like if the camera was a living organism.

But let me clear the other extreme: the idea is not to hit the camera. It is like letting the camera walk a lot, by natural pace, on rubberized shoes.

Hope I have answered most of your issues, at least to the best of my knowledge.

Cheers,
Ruben

 

[ruben]

.........
Honestly, I'm more of a "Kefitzat Haderech" adept than a repairman. 😉

Max ?, Max ? ? ?

 

[ruben]

Hello Ruben,

I fully agree with your points, especially that for a professional CLA that could cost many Kiev 2,3,4,and 5. Why spent many hundred USD for a $20 Kiev?Why give the feeling of great satisfaction to others?
I have serviced many Kievs myself, and now I consider myself a semi-professional.😀 😱 Since I spent the last 2-3 years on vintage watches, I almost forget how to disassemble&assemble a Kiev 2-4, and now I find servicing a simple manual wind Swiss watch much easier than a Contax-Kiev.
However, since a Kiev is a mechanical device, it is quite serviceable and It is great fun. I believe that most stiff Kievs could be made smooth after a proper service except those with defective or low quality parts.

Cheers,

Zhang

Comrade Zhang,

I miss you and I need you for help here. You have a lot to contribute and a good idea will be to start a "search" here with the words "Kiev Project".

Now I owe a word of honesty to Mr Scherer and all Contax users on his waiting list or afterwards:

a) As my experience grows, I become more and more in agreement with the idea he performs, that each single piece shoud be disassembled for the best possible cleaning (not to speak about lubrication, examination, nor fixing or adjustment).

b) In fact, I think his price is too cheap for the working hours he performs it per camera.

c) We Kiev users, used to a different scale of prices, will be happy with less than perfection, and still have MUCH BETTER AND SOFTER cameras than what we got from eBay. This common sense idea is behind the comming Kiev Project.

Cheers comrade,
Ruben