Tony and the Afghan girl photograph

[raid]

thank you Huss and Wenge, glad you like them and for letting me know

Yes, your images are beautiful, Kuuan.

 

[aizan]

i wonder if citing sources will become standard practice for controversial topics like this. tony posted a google doc of citations and corrections.

 

[kuuan]

Not all of us “Pros” are bad in form and conduct, many of us actually care about our subjects and take the time to sew genuine relationships with people that may not even bear the fruit of a photograph.

Certainly I would hope so and believe you!

You have a few nice images in there, keep at it and perhaps avoid the static dead center snaps and you might actually have a good narrative set that goes beyond the oft celebrated cliches.

thank you very much for your observation and suggestion! I will try to keep it in mind.

Experiences then could fill books. It had started a year earlier when, at the same Pashuptinath temple, I had met "Pintu Baba", a "Khareshwari" or "standing Baba", camping out there. He had vowed not to sit or lie down, to keep standing for 12 years, also to be a "Mouni" and "Phallahari", that is not to talk and to only eat fruits. The next year he had a bigger camp with followers during the Mahashivaratri mentioned earlier in this thread, and a year later again we had met again to first visit his home town and family and to go, together with a group of Babas from there, to the Kumbh Mela in Haridwar. To mention that from my side it had not been naive fascination for Babas then. I have had a good fill of experiences with Sadhus and Babas as "young hippy" in the 1980s when I had spent various years in India. The standing Baba however had fascinated me again and the insight into the lives of Babas from the experiences 2008, 09 and 10 had been much more profound.
( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standing_Baba
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maha_Shivaratri
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kumbh_Mela )

So far I have never seriously considered to try to make any publication

Getty sells the images as stock photos and thus the intended purpose is possibly advertising, and they're international so releases cover their butts. But lets say you were shooting directly for the NY Times, you would not need releases.

I shot an editorial recently at a State Prison, not one inmate signed a release. We were telling a story, not selling anything. Plus I was shooting 4x5 so they were pretty aware a picture was being made hah!

Another example. We all remember that video of the kid in the MAGA hat and the Native American? It was on every channel, in every publication, all over print and the web basically. That kid did not sign a release, and he is very possibly a minor. But it's news! You don't need a release to photograph people in a public setting if the intention is journalistic, artistic, or documentary.

but if I ever was this is very interesting information indeed, thank you for that! "Editorial" and most similar, related "technical" terms of the world of publication and / or advertising tell me nothing, blank, I have no ides what they mean. Guess I'd have to study up on these first.
So, if e.g. I made a book, or let's say online publication featuring the standing Baba, my experiences with him and the world of Babas during Mahashivaratri, the Kumbh asf., including photos of all characters involved, I would not need any model release? Then most likely also not if I made a photo exhibition and was trying to sell prints?

Yes, your images are beautiful, Kuuan.

thank you again dear Raid, very kind of you 🙂

 

[aizan]

@ michaelwj, regarding your points of "power imbalance"

my observation would be that when it happens between "the white man" and "local cultures" it often is pure insensitivity. In a facebook forum here in Bali, where I am at right now, sometimes local people post photos like these to ask tourist to please show more respect to their local customs and religion:
https://scontent.fsub8-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/42562206_361839291021698_4488243749192728576_n.jpg?_nc_cat=104&_nc_ht=scontent.fsub8-1.fna&oh=cff62818daccfbe0209916d037a1f783&oe=5D17138
https://scontent-sin6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/53212827_363223257613614_648720720905371648_n.jpg?_nc_cat=111&_nc_ht=scontent-sin6-1.xx&oh=726c1e59ee6b0eb18cb3e85b27722f90&oe=5D254BAE

now that's interesting. what photo forum is it? i'm interested in the captions as much as the photos.

However I also have been observing that the social divide may be much stronger within a developing country than between what most "white, western" tourists would dare to manifest: A young, local photographer with whom I had been out shooting in Saigon once instructed an obviously poor old woman in a market how to pose, another time a middle aged, obviously well to do local man in Indonesia I had been shooting out with instructed "common", "poorer" people hanging out in Surabaya how to pose, even grabbed them physically to "put" them how he wanted them. In both cases, as I had been regarding both these men, and I am still, as rather respectful and nice people, I was a bit surprised first. In both cases the "subjects', or "victims" if you may, had not put up any resistance but accepted with composure and patience. In both cases it seemed to me that there even might have been a certain amount of surprise, possibly even satisfaction of being worthy of being taken a photo, involved. ( my own style for a portrait, not a wider scene with random people inside the frame, usually is to simply ask first and if they agree let them strike the pose they choose, which I find most interesting )

again, very interesting! these "white, western" tourists who are more cautious and respectful (presumably because they're aware of colonialism) aren't the same ones in photos like those above who are being disrespectful, right? or are they the same?

what would happen if a white tourist aggressively posed working class subjects? would they be "flattered" in the same way? also, how are the photos taken by these local photographers being used? what role do they play in the local visual culture?

 

[kuuan]

now that's interesting. what photo forum is it? i'm interested in the captions as much as the photos.

Hi Aizan. It's not a photo forum but a facebook group called "Ubud Community". All kind of thing are discussed there by both foreigners and locals.

again, very interesting! these "white, western" tourists who are more cautious and respectful (presumably because they're aware of colonialism) aren't the same ones in photos like those above who are being disrespectful, right? or are they the same?

Hm, what to say, any generalization says something but also is false.

Of course not all will be so insensitive and respectless as those seen in these photos. There will be big individual differences of how sensitive and respectful someone is generally and when confronted with a foreign land and it's people.

However they may be much more the same in the sense of being little aware of the realities of the place they visit. The following may cause controversy and is out of my comfort zone but I'll try nevertheless:
In our western democracies the idea of "equality", at least as an ideal, has been established for quite some time now ( and sadly, since recently, seems to be in decline again ) Most socalled "developing" countries, in comparison, only recently basically have been feudal states: few rich and powerful and many poor and often rightless (!) Also only rather recently middle classes started to develop. Position and the power it gives are still very important. E.g. around most of S/E Asia, as far as I know, one has to pay substantial entrance fees to become a member of police, of army, customs asf. some places even to become a teacher. It may amount to the total of the official income of many years. Full family may put money together for one family member to make it or take a loan, if they have access to get one, that is. Once "inside" it also means integration in social security, health insurance and retirement money, sometimes for the full family but even more importantly a position which allows to make..side money! Generally position means power and most usually power to use, or often..misuse for one's own profit. Here in Bali a family of high position, e.g. after the death of a family member, may have to sell a car or even take a loan to have the cash ready to finance a big and spectacular cremation ceremony. If they fail to do so their social rank may decline which may result in diminishing privileges. It's an investment.

what would happen if a white tourist aggressively posed working class subjects? would they be "flattered" in the same way? also, how are the photos taken by these local photographers being used? what role do they play in the local visual culture?

I'd say generally most of all that depends on how one goes about it. E.g. the Indonesian photographer I had mentioned is an intelligent, highly educated man who knows how to entertain. When he directed people, who were persons who seemed to be just hanging out in their neighborhood around a huge market area, there had been good laughs and they seemed happy to get something going on. He is interested in showing traditional sites and scenes and as far as I know mostly only shares photos on his facebook. He may show them in other places too, I don't know, but he is a rather known figure in the local photography scene, had opened a well know camera shop in Jakarta.

In this sandstone quarry he had, for himself and two other photographers incl. myself, a worker pose in exchange for some donation from each of us.
He may have made more money posing for 20 minutes than working his hard job a full day and I'd think that for this reason only he was rather happy about it:


sandstone quarry by andreas, on Flickr, C.V. Heliar f4.5/15mm, Sony NEX5n, Madura 2018

As a foreign tourist one always has a certain "fool's privilege. One can take advantage of that, often even without creating much of bad feelings, if at all. People know that the tourist doesn't know, so to speak, and will accept a lot and play along.

Hard physical laborers, so it seems to me, often are not proud of their work and are not happy to be taken photos of while at work.
At this shipwreck place, I was taken there by the same local photographer, I hardly got any faces


Untitled by andreas, on Flickr

One did strike a pose for me, a bit as a way to deal with the situation, it seemed to me


Untitled by andreas, on Flickr, C.V. Heliar f4.5/15mm, Sony NEX5n, Madura 2018

they were friendly, in a break I did get this, the only other pose. Interesting him holding up the working clove he just had taken off (?!)


Untitled by andreas, on Flickr

Having been specially taken to the ship wrecking place by the local photographer I remember that I also did want to get some takes.
I wasn't feeling too well though and first had gone "astray" and got attracted by a nearby school. It was a special day and the kids were all dressed up. The teachers were surprised about the foreigner and rushed to line them up for me


Untitled by andreas, on Flickr

It wasn't too bad at the ship wrecking place, but in retrospect, next time in a similar situation, I shall be less pushy to get some takes and more respectful.


Let me share another photo of mine that still also pains me to even have taken, but which, on the other hand, I consider being one of my most meaningful. ( oops, again dead center..though in this case I still may not want it any different ) It's in an apartment building in Dwarka, south Delhi, a typical residential area for the new middle class. I was out on the hallway taking photos of the architecture and of friends of my friend I was visiting that had been hanging out with us. There also had been a few poor laborers, bricklayers. I approached and with sign language, or did I use my little Hindi, asked if I could take his portrait. Unfortunately I can't remember if my local friend also mingled in and told (!) him to let me take a photo or not. Anyway he kind of.. froze at the spot, patiently waiting for me to manually focus my Takumar on a dSLR which wasn't as easy as with later mirroless cams and therefore had taken a rather long moment.
This was his pose:


bricklayer, Dwarka by andreas, on Flickr, S-M-C Takumar f3.5/24mm, Pentax K-x, India 2010

cheers, andreas

 

[Doug]

Interesting, Andreas, thank you!

 

[jarski]

This might answer some questions asked here https://petapixel.com/2019/03/18/the-winning-photo-of-the-120k-hipa-prize-was-apparently-staged/

“For the last couple of years […] there are hundreds of Malaysian and Chinese tourists carting cameras and doing things,” Ahad told PetaPixel. “They are all around making images and ruining things for professional photographers. […] [P]eople think it’s natural to give a pose if a photographer asks

 

[Out to Lunch]

Which leaves the question whether or not the woman was paid to pose.

 

[kuuan]

whichever way this photo came to be I rather see pain even despair, not hope
( and feeding a stereotype of the good but downtrodden poor for which we, the affluent and socially conscious, can feel sympathy and hope, here it is, that their plight may improve. Being for and about us so that we may feel good about ourselves )

Interesting, Andreas, thank you!

thank you Doug 🙂