Travelwide 4x5: Good for learning LF?

[shorelineae]

Hi all,

I would appreciate your advice on a purchasing decision. For USD 300, someone in my country is selling a Travelwide 4x5 with a Super Angulon 90mm f6.8 with two film holders, focusing screen, pinhole insert, etc.

I currently shoot 35mm film/digital and medium format (Rolleiflex). I would like to try Large Format photography and this seems to be a good entry level camera as per the research I've done and the YouTube videos I've seen.

I would like to use it as a 4x5 camera for landscapes while traveling or environmental portraits. My question is: How important are the advance functionalities of tilt/shift/etc for this purpose? Will I learn about LF photography with this camera?

The other alternate is to buy a pano medium format camera or a wide-angle lens one such as one of the GSW690iii.

 

[Rayt]

I would not recommend something like that and instead steer you to a used foldable camera like a Wisner, Shenhao, etc. In the beginning all you will need and probably use is front rise. After you have shot a hundred sheets you’ll know exactly what kind of camera you want.

 

[Emile de Leon]

You can make some stunning prints with the 4x5 in that format..
Unless you want to fiddle around with movements..
You should be able to do great with that cam!

 

[Rayt]

Yes but he wants to learn how to use LF. The advantage of LF is the ability to use the movements.

 

[CharlesDAMorgan]

The whole point of LF is the movements. For all bar insane levels of enlargement you'll get little extra over medium format, but at vastly increased cost of negatives and development.

You'll learn nothing about large format from that other than pinhole (for which there are many cheaper options) and how to manage film backs.

 

[shorelineae]

Thanks all. That’s indeed my quandary. If I do shoot with this travelwide am I better off shooting Medium format, if I am not getting the real lF experience. Only large negatives and how to operate an LF camera...

I might as well hold off for an Intepid or a Shen Zao as you guys suggested above. On the other hand I don’t quite understand if I need a movements to photograph landscapes in vacation? I had a project in mind with regards to travelling to a remote place and taking landscape shots. This travel camera could be convenient for that. Or a Fuji Texas Leica....

 

[CharlesDAMorgan]

I started with an Intrepid Mark II, and in retrospect, it wasn't the best place to start. There are other options that are reasonable, but what I hated about the Intrepid was its flimsiness and its habit of moving around in wind, or even when the dark cloth came off - too much having to reset the camera. If you have the money a more solid folding camera such as a Shen Hao would be a great place to start.

The ability to change perspective and move the plane of focus is really useful in landscape, but less so than say architecture. It depends upon your focus (sorry!) but you will still need to cart round a tripod, a dark cloth, film backs, camera and lenses, which do add up, so there's a lot to be said for a Texas Leica!

 

[besk]

The Travelwide does not have movements. It is not a bad camera if the focus mechanism is working. I have one.

Movements allow you (within limits) to get everything in sharp focus at the same time.

When you use movements the camera needs to be on a tripod.

Using a 4x5 in that way is slower to operate than handheld.

I would suggest that you do a lot of reading before purchasing anything.

 

[besk]

Look at https://www.largeformatphotography.info

There is also a discussion forum on that website.

 

[Ko.Fe.]

Movements are overstated. To benefit from them super wide bellows are needed.
I went to LF and back.
Here is nothing to learn with LF, but just a hassle.
Loading film, developing it, even focus is something which is cumbersome.
And results are not worth it; IMO.

 

[leicapixie]

In my experience, LF is not really needed anymore!
Learn photoshop adjustments and distortion controls..
Sure $x5 looks great but at a considerable cost of film sheets,
Holders, developing tanks and finally printing..
If you go "scan" to digital image, why bother with all before!
Ko_Fe is dead on.
I owned a Linhof 4x5, which proved a i suffered severe "ADD".

 

[B-9]

Have to agree with the last two posts.

4x5 is just not worth the hassle compared to your Rollei.

If you're going to scan it anyways... the point is totally moot.

If you're wanting a larger negative I would def. consider a Fuji 690!

 

[Phil_F_NM]

4x5 is an amazing format that can teach you things you can't learn using smaller formats. The thing about movements only being useful if they are extreme is nonsense. You're asking this opinion question on a forum that is based upon lightweight, portable cameras for reportage. Once you find the sweet spot of camera, focal length and how you like to work, you'll see that extreme movements are mere novelty. Great for product work, architecture and special effects like miniaturization but if you want to do landscape, there is no replacement for Scheimpflug an the best way to get it is with a large format camera. 4x5 is the smallest you can really make use of this effect. You can't do any of this in a computer. Youcan selectively blur and mess around with "perspective" but it is not doing anythingmore than distorting the image and degrading it because the computer is interpolating data to fill in what is not there in the real image.
Save up for a good, durable camera with movements. You can get a Wista for cheap, which uses very common, standard boards and has more movement than you'll need for a long time. If you want to backpack, then you'll want someting lighter like a Tachihara but the are sensitive to wind. You could also get something like a Rittreck 5x7 with the more common reducing back and have the ability to move up to the bigger film in the future.
Don't think that a 90mm on 4x5 is necessarily a good lens to start with either. Start with a "normal" focal length between 150mm and 240mm. Don't worry about the age of the lens or technology or whatever. Make sure the shutter is in good condition and go shoot. After shooting large format for a while and maybe checking out some of the older lenses from before coatings and computerized design, you'll see that not much has changed. My old 1913 Kodak meniscus lens will match my 180mm Fujinon EBC from f/8-f/11 and on. It only flares a bit more in sunlight which is how I can tell the images apart.
All that said, you can get into large format habits by using a tripod with your TLR. Dedicating oneself to a tripod will teach a lot about photographyacross fomats but it is absolutely necessary for large format.
Anyway, if you wat to shoot large format, do it. Don't listen to the naysayers.
Phil Forrest

 

[stompyq]

One of the problems/advantages of LF is reduced depth of field. So even at f64 without movements there are scenes with defocussed elements. The travelwide is fixed lens without movements so any landscapes you take will not be pin sharp. Buy a feild camera or even a graflex and learn to use the format. I recommend the Chamonix 45n2.

 

[DHK]

LF is useful if you want complete control over your image. If I was learning photography again for the first time, I’d hope my teacher started with a 4x5 view camera.

 

[Emile de Leon]

4x5..printed really large..in a wet darkroom...will kill most medium formats in tonality..only 6x9 can compete..and even then..
And a contact print on chloride paper..will kill any print made on other formats.. with hardly any mount of effort..lil jewels..hangin on the wall..
And that really small 4x5..will actually be fun to use..unlike most other 4x5s..
And with that WA lens..you are talkin...a lot of fun there..
and..its cheep too..
If you want to do the Ansel Adams thang..well..that another equation..and another camera..

 

[Deleted member 65559]

Shorelineae, I agree with Phil, AJ & Emile. I use 35, medium format and LF and no scanning or digital printing.... wet darkroom. A field camera is a terrific tool. BUT $300 in your country with lens & holders is a great place to start. Go for it.

 

[Takkun]

Interesting range of opinions here. I’m on the “pro-LF” side of things- once you’ve tried it, it’s easy to get hooked on the tonality of those big negs and low DOF. But for your purposes, Ie just starting out, it’s a tempting product but ultimately not ideal. Jumping up to 4x5 means jumping up in processing and darkroom/scanning equipment, or a huge jump in price for sending things out. That’s a big commitment, and you’d probably want as much versatility out of the camera whose images you’ll be developing. I guess that’s an irony about this format; there’s no dipping your toes in the water, you almost need to start from scratch building kit.

Then again, this camera isn’t too far off from something like an Alpa, at least the sans-movements part. But it does look like you’re fixed to the one lens it’s designed for and thefocusing range of the helicoid. For that, I see it as more of an adjunct to a more complete setup.

I disagree that movements aren’t useful. They’re fun, and if you’re looking to “learn large format” that’s a big part of it; developing and printing don’t change appreciably. My LF education was in architecture photography and movement is indispensable for that purpose, but has also opened up creative ways of working with landscapes and portraits. As I’ve alluded to elsewhere, I picked up a Fuji GX680, a MF SLR arguably heavier and definitely bulkier than a field camera, primarily for the LF style lenses and movements, but I didn’t want the hassle and cost of working with sheet film; that trade off made sense for me. (As an aside: it doesn’t nearly have the movement range of a field camera but as Phil said, extremes aren’t usually necessary...little lens tilt and your whole landscape is in focus,—who needs focus stacking?)

I’d ask yourself what you want to get out of LF, and if you’re willing to be limited to one wide angle lens in exchange for what else is needed to jump in to the format. I totally understand your motivation, w/r/t wanting a big negative when photographing somewhere special and difficult to access (I’ve felt something lacking when only bringing a rangefinder and a 50 to the top of a mountain) but sticking with MF might be more worth your while. A 6x9 out of a Fuji will still be a dramatic increase from 35mm but you’ll still be able to fit other essentials in your pack.
Also keep in mind setup time. The fact that setting up a shot takes so long has resulted in fewer, but far more carefully considered images, and that’s a plus. But even though I can carry the camera around just fine, I have to really, really want a photo to motivate myself to take 15 minutes to unpack and compose—not something I’m going to do when out with friends or en route somewhere. I mention this since you said “vacation”. I’ve brought along big cameras on trips with others where photography wasn’t the primary purpose, and rarely find the time to slot the type of photography demanded by the equipment.

 

[shorelineae]

Thanks everyone

Thanks everyone

Thank you very much, everyone.

As Ian (Takkun) very nicely summarized the thread, there is a wide range of advice here. When this camera popped up on a local classifieds, I was sorely tempted because nowadays we need to pay customs+VAT tax on every online purchase and there are no shops here to buy from.

That said, I don't need such a camera right now. I intend to travel sometime in the coming year and had been looking at a Fuji GSW690iii for the purpose of shooting wide landscapes while on the move (literally; cross-country travel).

I do currently scan both 35mm & medium format negatives. I started learning darkroom printing recently and that's going slowly in parallel (I like it; it's fun!).

I think for my particular needs, as many of you have suggested, it makes sense to focus on medium format for now and wait for when I have the time, budget and access to a full-size LF camera.

Considering that I wanted to use a camera on my _travels_ which suggests that I'll be trying to shoot a lot in a small span of time, I may not have the luxury of time that LF demands. Thus, a medium format rangefinder (pun intended) like GSW690 or similar, suits me best.

I'll continue reading about LF in the meantime to educate myself.

My profuse thanks to everyone who took the time to reply; I learnt something from all your replies!

 

[chipgreenberg]

You got a lot of good advise here. While portraits can be done, 4x5 is a great tool for landscape/ cityscape /architecture/ macro. The movements really give you control over the plane of focus.

I've shot with a lot of view cameras from Calumet, Cambo, Arca, Deardoff and Sinar. When I had my studio the Sinar rep came in and gave me his pitch on how Sinar had a unique system to let you really control the plane of focus. He loaned me one. I scoffed. It was 5x as much as the Cambo I was using.

I sold the Cambo. Sinar's system was a revelation. No more fiddle and guess. While their P/P2 cameras where a cut above, they're not very portable.

When you bite the bullet I highly recommend something like this: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/sinar-f-4x5-199.169560/