true or fake IIIC marine?
- Thread starter caila77
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S
Socke
Guest
Hm, unsure. It looks like one, i.E. the rangefinder arm seems to have a roller and not a cam like the FEDs and Zorkis.
The serialnumber falls within the claimed year and model.
In any case, if you buy it don't bring it to germany. Showing the insignia of the NSDAP and it's organisations as well as the insignia from the third reich is forbidden here.
The serialnumber falls within the claimed year and model.
In any case, if you buy it don't bring it to germany. Showing the insignia of the NSDAP and it's organisations as well as the insignia from the third reich is forbidden here.
FrankS
Registered User
Why would you want to pay a premium for this camera?
lubitel
Well-known
Socke said:
I dont think that applies to a camera with swastika on it? I mean I saw tons of NSDAP stamps in Karstadt!
bmattock
Veteran
I don't understand why anyone would want such a thing. Would you buy a lampshade if it were authenticated to be made of a human's skin? This, if authentic, is a symbol of hatred and it should be melted down and made into something useful. If not authentic, then it is the product of a sick mind. I feel sorry for anyone who would want to own such a thing, with the possible exception of a museum curator for an exhibit so that we never forget the evils men do.
Sorry, that's my take on it.
Best Regards,
Bill Mattocks
Sorry, that's my take on it.
Best Regards,
Bill Mattocks
S
Socke
Guest
lubitel said:
Realy?
At the moment even the symbols worn by anti fashists, a broken swastika over a litter box or a swastika in a stop sign, are banned. A student was fined some 50 Euro for wearing on on his shoulder. The judge admitted that he fined the wrong guy for the wrong cause but that the law is clear, except for artistic or documentary reasons the signs are forbidden.
lubitel
Well-known
thats interesting, but yes they really have nazi postal stamps in Karstadt.
benm3
Member
I agree that there is something ghastly about collecting an old NAZI Leica, but is anyone considering the conditions under which Russian rangefinders were produced? Millions and millions of Russians perished in Soviet camps where they were forced into slave labor--the cheap labor behind many a FSU rangfinder. Where is all the moral outrage over the trade of Soviet cameras?
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
I think the camera is not a fake, I'm doubtful about the authenticity of the engraving,however.
caila77
Well-known
tahnks to all
tahnks to all
so thanks to all, also I think that the camera is original but not the engraved on the top, I don't want to buy this one but I'm curious... that's all
tahnks to all
so thanks to all, also I think that the camera is original but not the engraved on the top, I don't want to buy this one but I'm curious... that's all
Kragmeister
Greg Urban
I agree that there is something ghastly about collecting an old NAZI Leica, but is anyone considering the conditions under which Russian rangefinders were produced? Millions and millions of Russians perished in Soviet camps where they were forced into slave labor--the cheap labor behind many a FSU rangfinder. Where is all the moral outrage over the trade of Soviet cameras?
Not to mention the Carl Zeiss "guest workers" that went to Kiev to start up production of the Kiev/Contax assembly line. From what I've read they were "guests" for about 5 years.
Regards,
Greg
Not to mention the Carl Zeiss "guest workers" that went to Kiev to start up production of the Kiev/Contax assembly line. From what I've read they were "guests" for about 5 years.
Regards,
Greg
bmattock
Veteran
benm3 said:
You make a good point, and I'll give it some thought. I will note that there is a basic difference here - the "Nazi" Leicas are marked as such, which sets them apart in the 'collector' world and makes them more valuable. There is no difference that I am aware of between a 'slave labor' Kiev and a 'non-slave labor' Kiev in terms of external markings that make one more valuable than the other.
I do take your point though, thanks. I avoid 'conflict diamonds' for essentially the same reason, though most remain silent on the issue because they don't care where the diamond comes from or how many were murdered for it to be mined. Not that I buy many diamonds, but still.
Best Regards,
Bill Mattocks
caila77
Well-known
bmattock said:
jonasv
has no mustache
benm3 said:
Go through your household and look at all the items' badges "made in...". I'll bet you a whole lotta money that over 75% will be made in countries where violation of human rights is extremely common.
benm3
Member
I should probably mention that my first rangefinder was an old soviet Kiev, so my hands are hardly clean. I'm no expert, but I do know that the height of the Soviet Prison/work/concentration camp would have been during the Stalin years and shortly thereafter--from the 30's until the mid/late 50's. I think it's pretty safe to assume that most Soviet cameras made during that period were made by very unhappy labor. I wonder if anyone else on this forum has more details?
benm3
Member
I think it's one thing to see a 'made in China' sticker today, and quite another thing to know that something was made in one of the Soviet concentration camps. Yes, human rights violations abound in the world today, but during the Stalin years 50% of the Russian population made a 'visit' to one of the camps. It was a figure well known to Stalin that 1/2 of everyone sent to his camps would perish there.
bmattock
Veteran
caila77 said:
I think that 'real value' can be difficult to pin down. To a collector, a 'red dial' camera of a certain sort is worth more (or is it less, I can't recall) than a 'black dial' camera. 'Real value' is what people will pay for a particular item, so it is hard to say that something is 'double its real value'.
However, I would not pay ANYTHING for a camera with a Swastika on it, and I don't understand why anyone else would, either. It's disgusting. If I were given such a camera, I would destroy it, rather than pass it along to another.
With regard to the comments others are making in this thread - such as goods made in repressive governments, or with actual slave labor, etc - I am considering it, and everyone is making good points.
However, I am here talking about a symbol - a Swastika. It is not the Leica camera I am concerned with, or the manner by which it was made; in this case, I am referring to an actual symbol of hatred, engraved on the camera for all to see. This is not about what the camera IS, it is about what the camera now represents.
I would not buy a reproduction camera with a Swastika on it either. The symbol is insulting, degrading, and without redeeming value of any kind.
Best Regards,
Bill Mattocks
jonasv
has no mustache
Bill, I definitely agree with you: it's the symbol that does it. Where, when and by who it was manufactured definitely matters to me, but I too am guilty of owning goods made in poor countries with no respect for human rights (I am on the good path - no more Chiquita but Max Havelaar for me now!) etc. Symbols however make statements that are not as superficial as the paint they were written with.
Dougg
Seasoned Member
Yes, as a decorative item, such symbols appeal to some collectors and do often increase the sales price. But I suspect the buyer or seller doesn't consider the political significance as much as the plausible connection to a strong enemy in a dramatic time. If the symbol was faked later that knowledge destroys the value for the honest collector but there are some odd sorts who don't care.
I'm put in mind of a Tokarev, or possibly Tokegypt, pistol with prominent hammer & sickle nicely engraved on the slide, so consistent with other markings I'm convinced it was done at the time of manufacture. Since this is not common Soviet practice, I think it was done to increase sales value in the West, but its origins are a mystery, as pistols of this type were made in several countries.
For the history buffs, did materiel other than small arms get military acceptance stamps by the WWII German military? For instance, do genuine military Leicas of that time bear waffenampt markings? This small die-marking is an eagle with a swastika above and the inspector's own personal number below. There's quite a small industry in faking these marks now to increase collector value, and you can even buy fake dies. Expert fakery has gotten so convincing with Lugers, for instance, that even well-recognized experts can be fooled, undermining the market.
Bill, would you decline to own a small arm with waffenapts?
I'm put in mind of a Tokarev, or possibly Tokegypt, pistol with prominent hammer & sickle nicely engraved on the slide, so consistent with other markings I'm convinced it was done at the time of manufacture. Since this is not common Soviet practice, I think it was done to increase sales value in the West, but its origins are a mystery, as pistols of this type were made in several countries.
For the history buffs, did materiel other than small arms get military acceptance stamps by the WWII German military? For instance, do genuine military Leicas of that time bear waffenampt markings? This small die-marking is an eagle with a swastika above and the inspector's own personal number below. There's quite a small industry in faking these marks now to increase collector value, and you can even buy fake dies. Expert fakery has gotten so convincing with Lugers, for instance, that even well-recognized experts can be fooled, undermining the market.
Bill, would you decline to own a small arm with waffenapts?
bmattock
Veteran
Dougg said:
I had to look up what a 'waffenapts' was. Apparently, we are talking about "German Eagle" markings made by German military inspectors of war-time weaponry before it was accepted into the German army, yes? That being the case, then yes, of course I would decline to own such a weapon.
I own and have owned firearms, and I have held a FFL to deal firearms. I have built sporters out of 98-action Mausers of various manufacture. If I found such a mark after buying a firearm, I'd grind it off. The value of a weapon to me is that bullets go where I want them to go. Such markings are meaningless to me at best, insulting symbols of hatred at worst. I want nothing to do with them. I fail to see what purpose they (waffenapts) serve now, other than to glorify their former owners.
Best Regards,
Bill Mattocks
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