Trying to understand Winogrand.

[gns]

He liked to push things as far as possible. In his last years he pushed too far.

Probably the best answer given here towards explaining Winogrand.

Was it inevitable, that given his inclination to push the limits, his trajectory would eventually explode or fizzle out?

 

[OurManInTangier]

I can't argue with your experiences Allen, especially as 30 years ago I was a child with little understanding of the world around me.

I wonder if your experiences in the early/mid eighties were universal across America ( or indeed the rest of the world) or possibly symptomatic of New York or other large cities at that time? I believe what I said certainly holds some truth in smaller towns and cities - at least in the UK. Perhaps I'm allowing too much of my British experience to shape my thoughts on the global issue - whilst we're still an achingly polite and conformist society in so many ways the level of confrontation has increased but in a more litigious and 'rights' based manner than in violence or the threat of violence.

Wherever the (or a) truth may lie, we work within the confines of our time and place and just as we adapt to that perhaps we adapt our photography to that too.

 

[airfrogusmc]

Everyone's experiences were different back then Allen. I had many a friend get beat up for their cameras. Today, people might be used to seeing cameras around peoples' necks, but the situation of having one pointed at themselves has changed a great deal. Today it has become more contentious, litigious, and down right religious 🙂D). Look at all the cities passing laws about photographing people and places without consent.

Allen, I found the city to be a lot more interesting 30 years ago. The people too. I wish then, I was a bit more "mature" and dedicated like I am now. Who knows, maybe I was. Time does strange things. All those images from then are in storage. It would be interesting to see them again....

Keith still I have a lot less issues out there. I go easily into neighborhoods now, even the ones that haven't be gentrified, that I would cringe to go into 30 years ago. And even with all of that i still have a lot less issues today than I did years ago when I stuck out like a sore thumb. I was riding the blue line into the city the other day and there were two other people in the car with me that had big DSLRs around there necks. 30 years ago there wouldn't have probably been another photographer on the entire train with a camera let alone have them out. On good weeks I'm out on the streets 4 and 5 days. This is my experience and I live in one of the largest cities in the US.

 

[willie_901]

Just a couple of comments.

For a period of years GW worked daily on the streets of NYC. I don't think people understand his commitment/obsession to the work. The more you work, the more your talent will produce what GW believed were interesting photographs. You don't earn three Guggenheim Fellowships[ and a grant from the National Endowment for the Arts just because you have influential friends and, or political connections. Do don't earn them by spraying and praying. You earn them by working hard to execute a unique vision. GW was more than a street photographer who randomly ran around shooting as many rolls of film as possible. Anyone who reads transcripts of his interviews will acknowledge GW worked purposefully.

GW admitted he was sloppy and neglectful with his work. HE was selfish. He only did what he enjoyed doing... making candid photographs. He had a disciplined work ethic (making photographs) and a total lack of self-discipline (curating his work) at the same time.

While teaching in Austin TX, GW was badly injured while shooting from the sideline of a University of Texas football game. He really never recovered from these injuries. His life and work was affected by chronic pain.

GW clearly went off the rails at the end of his life. Different people respond to terminal illness in different ways.

Neither his sloppiness, selfish habits nor his manic behavior when he knew he was dying detract from his photographic genius.

 

[airfrogusmc]

I can't argue with your experiences Allen, especially as 30 years ago I was a child with little understanding of the world around me.

I wonder if your experiences in the early/mid eighties were universal across America ( or indeed the rest of the world) or possibly symptomatic of New York or other large cities at that time? I believe what I said certainly holds some truth in smaller towns and cities - at least in the UK. Perhaps I'm allowing too much of my British experience to shape my thoughts on the global issue - whilst we're still an achingly polite and conformist society in so many ways the level of confrontation has increased but in a more litigious and 'rights' based manner than in violence or the threat of violence.

Wherever the (or a) truth may lie, we work within the confines of our time and place and just as we adapt to that perhaps we adapt our photography to that too.

Simon I think my experiences would be relevant to any large city for that time. I live in the Chicago area so big city. I remember when I was still in school, hearing Davidson speak in the mid 1980s. He was just finishing Subway and he talked about how dangerous the New York subway was and working on the streets in general where at that time. He was mugged a couple of times. Beat up and camera's stolen. I think on Everybody Street he talks about how some might not understand how dangerous it was in the 80s because it's not like that now.

 

[Keith]

Interesting society. In sixty years the US has gone from segregation and race riots to a black president. Not much improvement there I agree! 🙄

 

[daveisbest]

I feel like a lot of bs has been posted in this thread.

Saying that it was much easier to photograph in Winogrands time and that everything looked nicer back then? I mean come on. Do you think Winogrand complained that Robert Frank had it easy because America was more photogenic in the 50's? I doubt it.

Winogrand lived and breathed photography. The 'Winogrand 1964' book that came out a few years ago contains more great photographs from one year than many photographers manage in a lifetime.

 

[airfrogusmc]

Arguably the 60s, when his best work was produced.

But I don't really care. His America was much more interesting than today's.

Well that's your opinion but America is just as interesting today it is just different. Change is the constant in life and time never stands still. We can embrace the change or get stuck in the past and never grow. Things are just different now and things are just as interesting now as they were then you just have to see.

 

[airfrogusmc]

I feel like a lot of bs has been posted in this thread.

Saying that it was much easier to photograph in Winogrands time and that everything looked nicer back then? I mean come on. Do you think Winogrand complained that Robert Frank had it easy because America was more photogenic in the 50's? I doubt it.

Winogrand lived and breathed photography. The 'Winogrand 1964' book that came out a few years ago contains more great photographs from one year than many photographers manage in a lifetime.

Yep I agree. It wasn't easier then. In fact he Pappageorge and Meyerowitz were changing the language of an art form. Not easy at all.

 

[OurManInTangier]

Yes, even I remember news stories regarding the NY subway of the 70s' and 80s'. There was even debate as to whether the London Underground may have benefitted from a UK version of the Guardian Angels ( if I remember the name correctly) it turned out that we didn't follow suit but I'm sure some came over for a period.

I'd hate to appear as if I'm overlooking the violence and hatred that has blighted cities in the UK over the years such as racism, the casual violence enjoyed by some football fans of that era and the violence between certain groups ( the mods and rockers a decade or two earlier as another example) but I'm often reminded of the time I was taken in to London around 78/79 and my grandmother ( the kind of woman who'd request tea and scones in a McDonalds) handed back some litter dropped by a group of Skinheads suggesting 'I think you dropped this' and they meekly took the litter and put it in a bin. Perhaps this is the conformatism that did and still does exist here?

Anyway, I'm slipping more and more off topic here 🙂

 

[OurManInTangier]

Well that's your opinion but America is just as interesting today it is just different. Change is the constant in life and time never stands still. We can embrace the change or get stuck in the past and never grow. Things are just different now and things are just as interesting now as they were then you just have to see.

...and I can finish by simply agreeing with this. With the exception of replacing America with Everywhere.

 

[airfrogusmc]

Yesterday: you could photograph kids. Today: you are a pedophile.
Yesterday: people wore shoes. Today: people wear ugly sneakers.
Yesterday: life was happening outside. Today: life is happening inside.
Yesterday: obesity was a malady. Today: obesity is a standard.
Yesterday: wardrobe was important. Today: the lousier you look, the cooler you are.
...

I said a long lens in a park with kids could be an issue or beach but I photograph kids all the time.

I don't know what niegborhoods you go to in the US but I can tell you that in New York in Little Italy and China town life is on the streets. In Chicago Wicker Park, Logan Square, in the loop and many other niegborhoods life is on hte streets to.

And wardrobe is the times and what it is. Those sideburns and bellbottoms of 60s were at the time not considered attractive either by many.

How can you capture THESE times is the challenge. Those times are just that. They are gone. You either grow or die or mark time. The world has changed. You can be relevant and capture the change or stay back in the past. Winogrand and all the great street photographer like him where about their times. Winogrand said that both Evans and Frank were his two biggest influences but he didn't let that keep him in the past, He could have searched out things that were dying but instead he shot life and the times he was in. We should all be doing the same.

 

[johannielscom]

Just a couple of comments.

For a period of years GW worked daily on the streets of NYC. I don't think people understand his commitment/obsession to the work. The more you work, the more your talent will produce what GW believed were interesting photographs. You don't earn three Guggenheim Fellowships[ and a grant from the National Endowment for the Arts just because you have influential friends and, or political connections. Do don't earn them by spraying and praying. You earn them by working hard to execute a unique vision. GW was more than a street photographer who randomly ran around shooting as many rolls of film as possible. Anyone who reads transcripts of his interviews will acknowledge GW worked purposefully.

GW admitted he was sloppy and neglectful with his work. HE was selfish. He only did what he enjoyed doing... making candid photographs. He had a disciplined work ethic (making photographs) and a total lack of self-discipline (curating his work) at the same time.

While teaching in Austin TX, GW was badly injured while shooting from the sideline of a University of Texas football game. He really never recovered from these injuries. His life and work was affected by chronic pain.

GW clearly went off the rails at the end of his life. Different people respond to terminal illness in different ways.

Neither his sloppiness, selfish habits nor his manic behavior when he knew he was dying detract from his photographic genius.

This +1 (10chars)

 

[kbg32]

Keith still I have a lot less issues out there. I go easily into neighborhoods now, even the ones that haven't be gentrified, that I would cringe to go into 30 years ago. And even with all of that i still have a lot less issues today than I did years ago when I stuck out like a sore thumb. I was riding the blue line into the city the other day and there were two other people in the car with me that had big DSLRs around there necks. 30 years ago there wouldn't have probably been another photographer on the entire train with a camera let alone have them out. On good weeks I'm out on the streets 4 and 5 days. This is my experience and I live in one of the largest cities in the US.

Allen, what I was getting to - there were issues then as there are now. Times have changed. Different issues of course, but they are there nonetheless. Though the confrontations have become less violent, they are there, they still are argumentative.

I photographed a man waiting at a bus stop walking my son home from school a few days ago. I didn't think the man saw me. He followed us for two blocks before tapping me on the shoulder and asking why I took a picture of him. Mind you, my 6 year old was with me less than 2 blocks from home. All I thought about was his safety. I told him I thought he looked sad, angry, and lonely sitting there by himself. I thought it was an interesting situation. He didn't know what to say. I turned and walked away making sure he wasn't following us any further. I have always found honesty to be the best policy.

Attached is the image. Not a great one, but it is as I saw it.

 

[airfrogusmc]

Good point. Every time period has had it's own issues. I still get a problem ones in a while I just don't get noticed and/or paid attention to as much so the confrontation is not as common because of getting paid attention to less. And I'm a 6'2 inch 250 pd former Marine. So I fill up some space.

 

[Gregoris]

Maybe people who think that street photography is alive in the 2010s and that you get equally interesting shots as the ones in the past, care to show us a contemporary street photographer that they think is worth mentioning?

 

[airfrogusmc]

Here's a few just off the top my head that i think are doing some interesting things.
Dan that posts here
Keith that posts here
Simon posts here
Dave posts here
Alex Webb
Hector Isaac
A couple of the usual suspects:
Boogie
Manos
Gilden

Just a few....

 

[sdotkling]

Things were different in the 70's, I can attest, but maybe not for the reasons others have cited. When I was walking around with a camera in the mid-70's, I was an underweight 20-something with fuzzy hair, and hardly a threat to anyone. Now I'm a somewhat grizzled mid-60s bald man who has, on occasion scared people with my camera. Am I a cop? Immigration? A spy? Someone's father or boss? A perv? So its not that people on the street have changed (though, for sure, there's hardly a person that's not on their phone right this second) but that I have.
This all became very apparent when I handed my digital camera to my cute, blonde 18-year-old niece and she toddled off down the street in San Francisco one day, going into storefronts and talking to people as she went snapping away. The photos were completely different than anything I could've taken, because people are much more open to a pretty girl than to her graying uncle.
So maybe the thing to do in photographing people in their natural state is to hand off your camera to someone chosen expressly for the purpose, with instructions, rather than clicking the shutter yourself.

 

[Gregoris]

In some of the examples given above, their most memorable work is from (way) before 2001. I mean, Gilden? Koudelka still shoots, is he what we would call contemporary style - ie 21st century?

 

[Pioneer]

I am having trouble imagining a cute, blond, 18 year-old girl "toddling" at all. 😀

My own grandson and granddaughter walk around with cameras and come back with very different photographs than I do. Some are very good and some are terrible.

I think that the biggest thing I notice is they are not constrained by any rules. They don't know about the rule of thirds or not to put your horizon in the middle. They don't even seem to care if the picture turns out a bit crooked.

The other thing is they are friendly. They talk to people. They don't seem to sneak around. They walk right up to people and say; "Can I take your picture?": or; "That is a neat dog." They notice what other people are doing or wearing and comment on it.

Whatever it is that they have, I have lost. I would love to find it again. 🙂