Two questions...

Bill Pierce

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I wonder if there aren’t too many controls, buttons, dials and LCD settings, on many modern digital cameras, controls that make little difference in the final image or simply duplicate controls that can be exercised in post processing, but slow down the process of capturing a moment. Film photographers made up silly acronyms for what had to be set on their cameras like FAST - Focus, Aperture, Shutter, THINK!! They were simple minded, but they reflected the rather simple procedure that preceded settling down to take a picture. That’s sort of changed with modern digital cameras.

Should you use Auto ISO, shutter priority, aperture priority, program, manual, spot metering, averaging metering, zone metering; what focus mode and should it be single or continuous? And so on and so on…

From the early days of exposure automation and then autofocus in some film cameras, I’ve tried to come up with a single setting that could be applied to a variety of camera bodies and a variety of shooting situations so I don’t have to think about my cameras and can think about my subjects instead. I’m not totally successful. There are changes between doing head shots and football games, but for 90 per cent of my work it’s single shot, auto prefocus and lock focus, center weighted metering with shutter priority (or aperture priority when working wide open in dim light). And, as said, it’s something I’ve done for so long that I don’t think about it.

Two questions…

(1) What do you think about the many options offered, usually by menu choices that may take more time to set up than physical switches and dials? Are they of use to you?

(2) Have you worked out any system that simplifies and speeds the operation of many modern digital cameras that you could recommend to others?

Oh, and a third question. Am I showing my age?
 
Two questions…

(1) What do you think about the many options offered, usually by menu choices that may take more time to set up than physical switches and dials? Are they of use to you?

I usually investigate them, but seldom seem to find any particular use for them. Aperture-Priority shooting has been very useful to me over the years, and as I spend more time lately shooting vernacular-style at events, the 'auto' switch is often my friend on my dSLR.

I commonly set up my Pentax dSLR cameras to allow me to manually set aperture using the aperture ring on manual focus lenses, as I recall. I turn off the beeps and other noises. Depending on the camera, I might bump up in-camera sharpness a notch. I used to set the menu choice that allowed me to switch to RAW with an external button, but seldom use it.

(2) Have you worked out any system that simplifies and speeds the operation of many modern digital cameras that you could recommend to others?

Other than the above, no. I am fairly certain that most people who are well-versed in photography want more manual control over their images than I often do, and I absolutely get that and support their choice, but for me, Aperture-Priority and manual focus are about as exotic as I get. I shoot on auto a lot, I don't seem to be losing anything I really want unless I drop out of 'vernacular' mode and go for some specific effect.

I *can* control my cameras for pretty much any effect I want. But normally, I can't be bothered to do so. At least the options are there if I want them.

Oh, and a third question. Am I showing my age?

Not as far as I can tell, but I'm not exactly a spring chicken.
 
By the F4, I switched from meter-set-recompose to meter-lock-recompose, and I am still there. That is, I have never progressed beyond centre-weighted aperture priority AE and centre-spot AF, with lock buttons applied to both.
 
(1) I hate them, and worse: I can never remember how they work;

(2) I have gone back to using Leica M system gear;

(3) Nope. Ask me how I know.
 
(2) Have you worked out any system that simplifies and speeds the operation of many modern digital cameras that you could recommend to others?

On my D4 & D700 that I use for sports, they are now used only for sports. There are so many settings to get the fastest, most accurate focus tracking, proper exposure, FPS, picture settings, etc. etc, that it seems like whenever I try to use them for something else, and change the settings, I'm always screwed when I'm shooting the next game, and it's like half way through the game before I finally get them set back up properly. So now I don't touch them between games (aside from charging the batteries).

I'm a bit paranoid.
 
I'm with Tim. Paranoid, as in I don't lend bodies anymore to anyone.

My responses to your questions:

(1) I tolerate menus, meaning I get the settings the way I want them, then leave 'em alone (dreading the next firmware upgrade that resets settings to defaults).

(2) Kind of camera-dependent. If a camera supports saving multiple set-ups I use it, structured along light quantity/quality: lowlight, outdoor-bright, outdoor-flat, indoor-mixed, and so on.

(3) Well yes, since you're able to recall the simplicity of film cameras from 30+ years ago.
 
I was prepped for such buttons from the time Canon introduced the magnificent T90 camera. It was at first a technical wunderkind after the Canon F1N, but I started then to appreciate "the little buttons" or options in the T90.

I keep things simple in the M8/M9. I set the camera on autoexpose and ISO 160 for a start, and then I may change the ISO to 320 or 500, and I use +/- exposure adjustments if needed. but this is it.

Wanting simplicity makes a lot of sense for RF users. The M3 is basic and wonderful. This is not about being old.
 
The only digital cameras I have are two Merrills a GRV and a 5D2.
All different in the way they present the information and all have features which I find I`ve never required.

However I don`t find any of that gets in the way because I tend to use them all in a basic , simple way.

Probably missing out taking that approach but thats the way I do it.

Push come to shove I find the Canon menus and controls the most responsive.
 
digital: shoot manual exposure, auto focus, auto iso = 25-33% keepers
film: shoot manual exposure, manual focus, 400 iso shot at 240 = 75% keepers

why? i have no idea.
 
I've never understood all the chagrin over too many buttons or controls. You set your preferences and leave them alone or tweak as needed. At least you have the flexibility to configure what you want.

I wish my MM had a dedicated AE lock/hold button and an exposure compensation dial on top. Actually, I'd welcome a multi-zone exposure option as well.

John
 
To me it always comes down to framing and content over everything else. I will use whatever automation as long as it allows me to get what I want, the way I want it. Shutter priority doesn't mean I'm not choosing an aperture and vice versa. However, I just don't use automation to the point of allowing the right decision not to be made. That said, a clean interface has always been more appealing to me over a complicated interface.
 
This has been bothering me! Let's do the math:

There are about 17EV values normally encountered, from say 0 to 16. If you stuck with one of those, you'd be guaranteed within 1/2 stop (assuming the right one). Not quite enough-- let's add 1/2 EV values: 33 of them total. Okay, so you want depth of field control. In practical terms it would probably suffice to specify 3 options: wide aperture+fast shutter, narrow aperture+slow shutter, or a happy medium. Now we have 33*3 = 99 possible settings *for essentially every picture you will ever take*.

But you need your image to be in focus. Some early point and shoot cameras advertised, I believe, something like 200 possible focal settings. If you are bored, or waiting for glue to dry, you can cruise on over to your favorite DOF calculator. Default comes up as a Canon 7D with 55mm lens, a nice portrait combo. Let's set it up as f1.4 and see how many possible settings we would need to cover any possible photograph from 3 feet to infinity? Well, fewer than 70 should do the trick. That's pretty critical focus at 55mm, APSC and f1.4. The 200 total number of focus settings is looking good.

FAST--- we've got it all covered in about 200 focus settings and 100 aperture/shutter settings; 200*100 = 20000 possible settings, again, for any picture you're ever going to take! There are, roughly speaking, only 20000 ways to take a photograph (thank heavens for compositional interest).

If we code this efficiently as yes/no choices, a binary code, it works out to ~15 bits, or 15 yes/no choices on just 15 menu items. Let me say that again: 15 menu items pretty much covers the essential hardware settings for every possible photograph you're ever likely to make.

Now scroll through the menu descriptions in the review of any modern digital camera.

There are more ways to set up the automation that is supposed to be automating this process than there are possibilities in the entire universe of the process!!!

Okay what about tone curves, white balance and etc. As mentioned, we could assume we're shooting in RAW and adjusting these later anyway. Okay what about macro? Yah so make it 16 menu items. Okay so what about ISO? As I understand it, some cameras now are more or less ISO invariant-- you just shoot at base ISO and boost exposure later, the resulting image is equivalent to one taken after adjusting ISO in the camera. But yah, a nice ISO dial would be cool to go along with those 16 menu items.

Now of course any efficient binary code for setting FAST camera settings would be nonsensical. But the point remains, the number of ways to adjust the automation vastly exceeds the universe of possibilities being automated.

Not good design.

To give a practical answer to the questions: I like the set-up on the Leica X2. Shutter dial with an A. Aperture dial with an A. Autofocus on a center spot and re-compose. Works great and is extremely intuitive.

Question 3-- If you're showing your age, what am I showing? :~)
 
(1) What do you think about the many options offered, usually by menu choices that may take more time to set up than physical switches and dials? Are they of use to you?

Depends upon the camera and what I use it for. I think that this is more of a generational issue than a do we need it or not. I used to think that we had no use for many of the menu choices, but I’ve come to realize that there is a large generation(s) of photographers coming up that are fine with the functions and menus. Old pharts like me odds are tolerate them at best. Trying to get through all of those options on a screen is I think for many is a pain in the butt. A better way is to make an App-for-That and utilize the WIFI built into so many cameras these days. Keep the controls on the camera, but allow an App (iOS, Android, osX, Windows 10) to send configurations to the camera. Allow users to share configurations, store custom ones on their device (e.g. phone, pc, mac, tablet) rather than forcing old eyes to traverse the beautiful screens on the back of most digital cameras (ok, sadly all cameras, off topic rant…).

Working with a wide range of applications over the past three decades I can say it’s important to find the right tool for the job. Keeping a way for someone to trudge through the menus on the camera but provide them with a world class interface on a controlling device would frankly fuel another round of new body purchases for any vendor doing a good job in the App.

Yes, they are of use to me, but harder now that I have bi-focals……


(2) Have you worked out any system that simplifies and speeds the operation of many modern digital cameras that you could recommend to others?

If I were designing a camera today I would have the old triad of controls the same way we did for years, shutter speed dial, aperture dial (preferred around the lens) and ASA/DIN/ISO dial. I think for many photographers other than a switch to video that’s about all they need really fast access to.

Put a small b&w LCD on the top of the camera to show shutter speed, aperture, ISO and a meter reading. Put a button on the body to turn on low, medium, or high illumination for the user. This allows users make adjustments if they want before they bring the camera to their eye. Perhaps a toggle for this LCD to switch between the exposure info and the zone of focus (close point, far point) based upon the lens and the aperture.

As it’s all fly-by-wire these days you could put an aperture adjustment ring on the body of some cameras around the lens mount. Simular in position to the Nikkor lenses but on the body (like the shutter speed adjustment was for the Nikkormat FTn and OM-1). You could even put the shutter speed dial there too, just not the same ring please and thank you. That would free up space on the controls. If you put an LCD on the top of the camera and show the same info in the viewfinder you do not need to put markings on either dial (e.g. 60, 125, 250, 2.8, 4, 5.6) other than a reminder which is what (shutter speed MUST be on the inside please and thank you).

You should have a few programmable buttons to change styles of metering (e.g. spot, center, average) and perhaps AF modes (e.g. face, follow, spot).

I haven’t used focus peaking so I’m not sure if it takes over the entire screen or just magnifies the center for a portion of the viewfinder so I can’t comment on approaches for it’s use.

I would like to suggest that vendors work with different groups of photographers to develop what I would call menu presentation profiles. The goal is to have two or at most three different views into the settings of the camera. All follow the same pattern and the last one has all of the options (read menu he11 IMHO) but the first one or two removes some of the less used selections you might use when taking pictures. So the first menu option might have only changes to the major (e.g. ISO) controls that you use most often. The second menu option would show more items (e.g. image size and configuration) but in the same order that are used less often. Perhaps the third would be the Full Monty, all the bells and whistles (e.g. GPS Tag, Copyright Notice) that you would sent up initially and perhaps never change.

(3) Oh, and a third question. Am I showing my age?

Not at all…….said the old Phart……(;->>>>>


Hope this helps and stimulates conversation.

B2 (;->
 
In answer to your questions ...

1. I have to say that the modern menu choices are a lot better than the "custom settings" on cameras like the Nikon F5. At least you do not need to carry a book or cheat sheet with you to figure them out. There are too many choices and some of them are useful in certain situations, but of course if you forget to turn off the function, you are likely to ruin your next shot. Why isn't this thing working!? Oh, I left the timer on ... click ...

2. I attempt to address this by having a user setting set up on my DSLR with the settings I'm most likely to want and I change the settings from there. I reset to the user setting every time I turn on the camera. On the Fuji camera I have I never reset anything that's not on an external knob or on the "Q" screen.

What absolutely drives me crazy are the settings that change something that you wouldn't expect them to change. An example is: on the Fuji, if you turn off the sounds, you also disable the flash. I suppose if you are trying to be stealthy, having the flash fire would ruin everything, but I just don't want to hear the sounds!

By the way, I always liked the acronym SAFE: Shutter, Aperture, Focus, Exposure compensation.

You're only showing that you're over 50.
 
I set up digitals to operate manually as I can justify for the camera or project or light. This bridges the chasm between PASM and M5 in practice. Tweaking the M5 speed dial while metering isn't too different from thumbing the GR's speed-rocker or tweaking its aperture front dial. My right hand is pretty smart and adaptable; it isn't interested in instruction manuals. The Easy does it approach works for me.

Fuji X speed/lens-aperture controls were a welcome return to analog/manual-friendly design, though the top-mounted speed dial is (to me) more nostalgic than haptic, compared to the M5 or CL.

I am grateful for certain magic buttons: AE/AF; Function 1/2 (that's plenty!); Review; Trash. I wish all in-camera-menu designers treated the Ricoh GR series as their bible; I also wish for world peace and economic justice :)

Finally, I have the luxury of not earning a living from photography. This sure makes a leisurely thoughtful manual practice easier and more continuous with film photography.
 
(1) normally find out what works best for the given camera and the situation(s) and stick with that. I tend to use cameras that have external controls and programmable Fn buttons e.g. X100T - the only Fn I use (3 out of 7) are for flash, face detection, and white balance (I shoot in-camera JPG with the Fuji).

(2) set the Camera User Settings (C1-C2-C3) of the e.g. Canon 5DII to your common usage (planned shoot usage)... programing the <AF-ON> button to focus / deactivate focus on 1/2 press of the shutter.

I agree with the use of Av and Tv in different situations... normally shutter speed is a priority in the type of photos I take.
 
I wish all in-camera-menu designers treated the Ricoh GR series as their bible; I also wish for world peace and economic justice :

I agree wholeheartedly with your comments, rhl, but this touches a spot.

Ergonomically, the GR is "The" photographers camera : all the controls under one hand, very well organised and smartly customisable. I set the function buttons to switching between auto and snap focus, the other to the snap focus distance. For exposure , I set it to Av, and for the tricky bits Tav, which is the same as manual with auto-ISO. Only need the menu to format the card, and that is the first line that appears when I call it. No fuss, set it and shoot.

The only thing missing on that camera is a little viewfinder. Pop-up.

cheers!
 
The one I can't get my head around is auto ISO .... haven't attempted to use that at all on any of my digitals that offer it. I guess in film terms it's a little like using Diafine.
 
I'm Canon DSLR, SLR user for 10+ years. I have old cameras and amount of controls (buttons, joystick and wheels) is balanced with amount of menus.
Few years ago I asked to try Olympus digital PEN, if I'm not mistaken. I have to dig the manual for something basic like RAW shooting. And once I set it right, the IQ was very close to my DSLRs. After this frustration over basic settings I didn't want it at all.
With Canon old DSLRs I could set exposure as I need just by controls and VF.
But with new ones, I'm not so good at. One person asked me to help with getting right exposure with brand new Canon DSLR. It was dark, I started to set to M same way as I do with 2005-2010 models and failure was epic. The thing went on LV and AF Servo, I was holding it down in my hands and it was trying to focus on something. :eek:
 
Consumers expect the digital camera to be both the camera and the darkroom, and manufacturers need their products to be all things to all people.
No simple design will come out of those two driving forces.

I'll just say that I don't re-adjust settings once I set up for a particular situation. Shoot RAF and sweat the details back home. Keeps the shooting event very simple.
 
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