Unaligned frames (1932 Leica II)

[Andrea Taurisano]

Hello knowledgeable folks!

One of my Barnack cameras, a 1932 Leica II, does this funky thing on the negatives. The exposed area isn't centered on the neg but partly ends up on the sprocket holes (bottom side of the image). But what puzzles me is that all frames are also slightly tilted towards the right hand side. Almost as if the metal frame that you see around the shutter curtain was tilted, but I don't see how that can be the case. Anything that can be adjusted to realign film? Do share a thought if you like. Thanks.

 

[raydm6]

I personally have never experienced this but these articles suggests film cartridge not seated correctly?

https://www.flickr.com/photos/je2a3/...7594277510150/

Crooked frames in a Barnack?

Modern film cassettes are 2-3mm shorter causing the image to slant and/or intrude into the sprocket holes in early Barnacks and clones. To compensate I used a stick-on felt (green) pad in the baseplate lock, works on a Fed 1/Zorki 1 also.

Not my original idea, credit is due to this post.

Interesting observation from this post in the below thread:

• #24

Posted June 13, 2011

Iver Aldas said:
Personally, I love seeing photos were sprockets are intruding into the image.​

Hi Iver

Yes

The problem is the cassette chambre in Barnacks is 2mm longer taen the 1933 DIN for cassettes. The DIN was sponsored by Kodak (e.g. DrNagel) for Retinas, and Leicas were built different..

The FILCA Barnack relodable cassettes are (were) 2mm longer then the standard, so they wont slip down.

The IXMOO (for M cameras) are to the DIN and can move down in Barnacks, but are usable in Barnacks, the FILCAs wont fit in Ms, the baseplate wont close. Dont ask how I know this....

Part way through IIIf production they included a finger in the baeplate to locate the film, the cassette 'dangles' from the film.

Normally the film rails will hold the cassette in place, Never had it happen with my IIICs or IIf

Noel

 

[johannielscom]

You need a washer under the cassette, at the baseplate side.
the Leica II was designed with the FILCA reloadable cassette in mind, which is about 2mm taller than the modern film cassettes.
as a result the cassette sits a bit too low in the camera, resulting in the slant and exposing the sprocket holes.

1.5mm cardboard or felt washer will push the cassette up and hey! presto problem solved

 

[jcb4718]

To cure the problem with my Leica II I used a half washer (stainless steel) and used Blu Tak to hold it in place. You may need a full washer because your problem looks more pronounced. If it is too thick the cassette will bind and you will need a thinner washer.

 

[Andrea Taurisano]

Thanks folks. That explaination makes very much sense, including the tilt - as the other side of the film is firmly secured to the take up spool. I'll see how I can fit a washer under the film cassette.

 

[Dralowid]

Plenty of info on this in the LTM section...

 

[TenEleven]

As others stated this is completely normal.

You either need to put a washer under the film cartridge, or have a technician permanently install one under in the bottom-plate to alleviate (but not completely resolve) this issue. Even with the washer-modification the film will always ride a bit low on these German pre-war cameras. Best I can do on my black Leica II is that the negative is "riding" on the sprocket holes. That's just how it is. The Contax I and II are the same in this regard, and need the same ~2mm washer, just like some other prewar German cameras such as the Weltini, etc.

On the upside, these pre-war cameras have actually a larger cutout for the negative area so you're not effectively losing image area compared to a modern camera anyway. I never had problems using these kind of negatives on my enlarger either.

 

[David Hughes]

As Michael has said there is plenty of info. on this but it is on the old version of the forum and so all my bookmarks for it and lots more are U/S. It's what I call a hardy annual...

Regards, David

 

[Erik van Straten]

I always put the film in a Leica cassette when using LTM-cameras. Silky smooth operation. But you have to learn how to load them.

Erik.

 

[raydm6]

An older RFF thread on the subject...film not straight.

As Michael has said there is plenty of info. on this but it is on the old version of the forum and so all my bookmarks for it and lots more are U/S. It's what I call a hardy annual...

Regards, David

David, unfortunately, some of yours and other's useful links in that thread point to older RFF threads/posts and no longer work - even using the Wayback Machine.

 

[Nitroplait]

Sprocket holes discreetly along the lower edge is very charming IMO. Kind of a Barnack Leica signature.

Below is an example from Elliott Erwitt - He used a Leica IIIC (and a Rolleiflex) for his Pittsburgh 1950 project.

Scroll down to his self portrait and several of the images below:
https://www.magnumphotos.com/newsroom/society/elliott-erwitt-pittsburgh/

 

[Dralowid]

Never be tempted by the mechanical excellence and craftsmanship of the magnificent Shirley Wellard. It does not work in an LTM camera and if you make the mistake of trying to put one in you may never get it out.

 

[Coldkennels]

+1 on the FILCA recommendations.

I have two IIIfs, both with the film alignment tab in the baseplate, and neither of them hold the film in the correct position. My IIIg and a If I used to own do. Eventually I got so tired of faffing about with washers that I started grabbing FILCAs whenever I saw them for sale... I think I've got seven or eight now. You get perfect alignment and the only "hassle" is actually loading the cassettes - but considering you need to cut special leaders for Barnacks, it's not exactly the worst thing in the world. I've saved a small fortune on film over the years, too. I think the added weight of a FILCA balances everything out a bit better as well - gives the camera a little bit of extra heft in the hand.

Related: when I bought a Contax II a year ago, I found it had exactly the same problem. I tried washers of various thicknesses but the film transport in that thing is a nightmare. I grabbed two Contax cassettes and BOY, do those things suck compared to the FILCAs - the opening and closing mechanism is a lot more vague - but running from cassette-to-cassette instead of using the loose take-up spool really improves the operation of the camera.

Now if only I could track down some of the late Leotax cassettes... I don't need them, as the Leotax holds the film in the right place. But it'd be damn nice to have some.

 

[David Hughes]

An older RFF thread on the subject...film not straight.



David, unfortunately, some of yours and other's useful links in that thread point to older RFF threads/posts and no longer work - even using the Wayback Machine.

Hi,
It would be nearer the truth to say that none of them work. But now and then some people get through to them and say thank you. It's all a mystery... And all that work of ours seems to have just vanished.

Regards, David

 

[Nitroplait]

I was on a FILCA trip for a while and own more than 10, but the drag with loading (and unloading) has gravitated my preferences towards just living with the signature sprocket holes slightly overlapping the image and use modern cassettes.
I don’t bother with the washer.

2 years ago I would have recommended people to check out the FILCA to try it, but the current prices on the popular auction site are not reasonable anymore and IMO not worth the trouble.
If you can find one under $20, by all means, pick it up - more than that is too much from a merely functional perspective IMO.

 

[Mr_Flibble]

What also helps with the LTM Leicas is making sure that when you are inserting the film into the camera that it actually rides in the film channel at the back of the shutter crate. Check this through the open shutter with the lens removed.

Once it is seated properly the film will generally stays there, even without a spacer under the film cartridge.

 

[Saganich]

I cut out a piece of cardboard that sits in the baseplate (about 1mm thick), keeping the modern film cassettes pushed down. I have to remove it to use the Leitz cassettes. The Leitz cassettes are nice but do have issues that aren't apparent until after you purchase them. Sometimes the baseplate can't push the lever enough to release the case and the lever has to be bent just slightly. There's also felt or something inside the bottom that helps the spool turn smoothly and if that is ruined the spool can bind up. Also, they are a pain to use in a Watson (not sure about Lloyd) bulk loader because turning the handle to load makes the cassette want to close, so often you have to keep pressure on the opposite side of the handle while winding. Cutting the leader correctly to get locked on the spool on an assembled cassette can be difficult because the protrusion has to be close to centered, which is difficult in the dark or in a changing bag. I believe these were supposed to be spooled when disassembled in a darkroom. It may be possible to use a changing bag to load the spool and then assemble the cassette...I'll have to try that.

 

[David Hughes]

Leica cassettes went through a few variations. I did a spiel about them here:-

https://idrh.smugmug.com/Photography...i-1s/i-RFRjv7q

Scroll down almost to the bottom or else search - usually Control + F when you get to that page - for "update". Below it is a second update explaining it from a 1930's (?) book I can't find at present.

Have fun. Regards, David

 

[oldwino]

I cut out a piece of cardboard that sits in the baseplate (about 1mm thick), keeping the modern film cassettes pushed down. I have to remove it to use the Leitz cassettes. The Leitz cassettes are nice but do have issues that aren't apparent until after you purchase them. Sometimes the baseplate can't push the lever enough to release the case and the lever has to be bent just slightly. There's also felt or something inside the bottom that helps the spool turn smoothly and if that is ruined the spool can bind up. Also, they are a pain to use in a Watson (not sure about Lloyd) bulk loader because turning the handle to load makes the cassette want to close, so often you have to keep pressure on the opposite side of the handle while winding. Cutting the leader correctly to get locked on the spool on an assembled cassette can be difficult because the protrusion has to be close to centered, which is difficult in the dark or in a changing bag. I believe these were supposed to be spooled when disassembled in a darkroom. It may be possible to use a changing bag to load the spool and then assemble the cassette...I'll have to try that.

The Watson 100 bulk loader was designed to work with the early Leitz cassettes. The downside is that you lose 2-3 frames at the end of every roll, so you have to remember that when shooting. I remember reading that Cartier-Bresson would hand spool cassettes every night in a changing bag when on assignment. I suppose you get good at it after a while.
​​​

 

[oldwino]

I found the right washer at the hardware store and glued it into my 1939 IIIa. Works with modern cassettes now.
I left my II alone, and I use that with the Leitz metal cassettes. It's a pain, but part of the "charm" when using a camera from 1932.