Understanding Leica DNG Files

[JPSuisse]

Hi All

So, the new M10 is actually appealing enough that I actually downloaded some of the images from the Leica website to look at in Lightroom.

Amazingly enough these images will load both on my Laptop running 10.6.8/LR4 and my Desktop running 10.4.11/LR2. I can even edit them... This means that I can buy a new camera without ditching all my hardware which works quite fine still.

Questions comments:
1.) How is this possible that such old software can read these new M10 files?
2.) This reduces cost of ownership dramatically for "new" Leica hardware.
3.) Where can I get some unedited M10 files just to play with to see if they fit in my ExifTool/Scanner/Digital Camera/LR workflow?

Any comments welcome!

 

[Gregm61]

1. Because Leica has always used Adobe's DNG format for their raw files, unlike all the other fool companies that create their own raw formats. One should be able to open any Leica raw file in any version of Lightroom or Photoshop.

 

[willie_901]

If the files you downloaded from the Leica were site were raw files, I will speculate the old software will read the files because Leica uses DNG raw files. DNG files will work with many versions of Adobe produces without any additional effort from Adobe.

By contrast, many other brands use proprietary raw-file formats (.NEF, .RAF, etc., etc). This means Adobe might have to develop new code to properly load and render these raw files. Occasionally one can edit the non-DNG raw file metadata and trick Adobe Products into rendering the raw file before Adobe creates, tests and releases ACR support for a new camera model. This works only when the raw file formats for an newer model are absolutely identical to an older models'. One edits the raw file metadata to indicate a supported camera model recorded the raw data. This is tedious, but it works.

Leica is very clever to use DNG raw files. It makes their life and customers lives simple. There must be economical, political or cultural reasons why CIPA members do not offer DNG raw output for their cameras.

Why do you assume the M10 files you downloaded from the Leica website are edited?

 

[user237428934]

When I open one of those M10 raw files from the Leica website in Capture One then I can open the file but the colours look flat and boring because there is no M10 profile in the software. So Capture One applies some generic DNG profile.

I prefer to have a proper colour profile for my cameras in Capture One. This colour profile must be developed by Phase One and will be part of one of the next software updates. Same applies for all other providers of raw converter software, they have to develop a colour profile for new camera. For my taste the specific camera profiles are a better start for working with an image.

You can download the Adobe dng converter for free and convert newer raw files to dng and process them with old software. But again your software will not have specific colour profiles for the newer camera, you get a flat start.

 

[JPSuisse]

You can tell the files have been edited, if you run ExifTool on them. You will see the Adobe LR edits in the -XMP-crss tag space.

But what is a color profiel for a DNG file? This is just a pre-setting or something then correct? Apparently, all the information to properly decode the DNG file is already in the DNG file.

 

[35photo]

You can tell the files have been edited, if you run ExifTool on them. You will see the Adobe LR edits in the -XMP-crss tag space.

But what is a color profiel for a DNG file? This is just a pre-setting or something then correct? Apparently, all the information to properly decode the DNG file is already in the DNG file.

I just downloaded a bunch of images from the Leica site as well. Yes, when opened in Lightroom you can see there was some pretty minor processing done based on the where the sliders are.. If you scroll all the way down in Lightroom in the Develop Module you will see camera calibration and the first drop down is the camera profile which is in the file M10 normally you can change to different profiles if available which it are not available right now for the M10 so all you have to work with is the built in stock profile which actually isn't bad... I applied my VSCO presets to the files results looked great!

 

[user237428934]

You can tell the files have been edited, if you run ExifTool on them. You will see the Adobe LR edits in the -XMP-crss tag space.

But what is a color profiel for a DNG file? This is just a pre-setting or something then correct? Apparently, all the information to properly decode the DNG file is already in the DNG file.

Bummer, didn't notice that. Not much sense to look at these. They should have posted tif or jpg to make it clear that they publish modifed "raws".

When you open a DNG with a standard dng profile you will have all the pixel information but the color interpretation might be off. Standard profile does not know if your sensor needs some color correction for example.

 

[1fpm]

1. Because Leica has always used Adobe's DNG format for their raw files, unlike all the other fool companies that create their own raw formats. One should be able to open any Leica raw file in any version of Lightroom or Photoshop.

Canon has a very good compressed lossless RAW. I'm glad Leica uses DNG. It probably reduced R&D cost to make their own.

 

[uhoh7]

M10 RAWs are very "beta", and will change by the time most get a camera:

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/268507-leica-m10-raw-file-dng-analysis/

 

[Fotobot]

The person who runs the Leica Rumors web site has posted their own set of unedited DNG files made with the M10 (see links in post):
http://leicarumors.com/2017/01/20/w...s-hands-on-reports-sample-photos-videos.aspx/

 

[JPSuisse]

Thanks Fotobot! I'll look at those unedited raws.

Coming back to camera profiles, what do they really do?
1. Do they change the way LR fundamentally interprets the raw file?
Or
2. Just apply a collection of pre-edits to a file when importing?

 

[willie_901]

You can tell the files have been edited, if you run ExifTool on them. You will see the Adobe LR edits in the -XMP-crss tag space.

But what is a color profiel for a DNG file? This is just a pre-setting or something then correct? Apparently, all the information to properly decode the DNG file is already in the DNG file.

Do you see XMP files that indicate rendering LR rendering parameters were applied.

Or do you simply see that the raw file was opened in LR? I believe any DNG file opened in LR will record this fact in the metadata.

LR can not modify raw data. By raw data I mean the original array of digital numbers, DN, copied from camera memory to the SDHC card. Metadata is not raw data. It is supplementary information about the image. Metadata is trivial to edit. Raw DNs are not.

LR offers the option to record all the rendering parameters in a DNG XMP sidecar file. With this option selected, any rendering platform that will read LR XMP and can apply LR's XMP sidecar parameters will initially render the image with these parameters applied. Again, the original raw data is not modified.

There is no reason to believe Leica, or anyone else, modified the DNG raw data.

A DNG file uses Adobe's algorithms to demosaick the raw data. While their algorithms are identical for all Bayer raw, the parameter (variables) used by the algorithms are different to accommodate differences in sensor assembly characteristics. Often Adobe must create these parameters by themselves. Some brands, (Leica and Fujifilm... perhaps others) cooperate with Adobe. These unique sets of demoasicking parameters are what make DNG files a standard anyone can adopt (DNG usage is royalty-free).

 

[Godfrey]

Thanks Fotobot! I'll look at those unedited raws.

Coming back to camera profiles, what do they really do?
1. Do they change the way LR fundamentally interprets the raw file?
Or
2. Just apply a collection of pre-edits to a file when importing?

Camera calibration profiles 'tune' the raw conversion algorithm and enable an out-of-camera raw file of a reference exposure to match the reference's color characteristics. They operate at a lower level in the raw processing chain and have a wider range of adjustment than other rendering adjustment controls.

In Lightroom, available camera calibration profiles are presented in the Develop module's "Camera Calibration" panel along with the Process Version choices and some fine tuning controls for Tint and RGB primary values. You can also create your own camera calibration profiles by downloading the DNG Profile Editor from Adobe along with its targets and instructions for use.

Camera calibration profiles are what allow Adobe, camera manufacturers, and users to create basic rendering choices for different specific situations ... like the white balance selections on a camera for "Sunny Day", "Cloudy Sky", "Landscape", "Portrait", "Open Shade", "Fluorescent Lights", etc.

I have created various camera calibration profiles for use in specific circumstances ... ones that do the image inversion and gamma correction necessary for B&W or Color negative scanning, ones (created with Xrite Passport software) that map to the Pantone color checker reference chart in order to match different cameras/sensors to one another when shooting product work where a match is essential, and so forth.

G

 

[willie_901]

Thanks Fotobot! I'll look at those unedited raws.

Coming back to camera profiles, what do they really do?
1. Do they change the way LR fundamentally interprets the raw file?
Or
2. Just apply a collection of pre-edits to a file when importing?

The Camera Profiles optimize the Bayer demosaicking model for specific cameras. They are used every time the raw data is rendered into an image. The raw file itself is not modified or altered. Adobe provides detailed instructions for users to create and add their own Camera Profiles. They also provide a platform for people to share user created Camera profiles.

The "collection of pre-edits" can be stored in two places. These are always stored in the Adobe LR Catalog. One can choose to also store these in an XMP side car file embedded in a DNG file. The original raw data is not altered.

 

[jaapv]

When I open one of those M10 raw files from the Leica website in Capture One then I can open the file but the colours look flat and boring because there is no M10 profile in the software. So Capture One applies some generic DNG profile.

I prefer to have a proper colour profile for my cameras in Capture One. This colour profile must be developed by Phase One and will be part of one of the next software updates. Same applies for all other providers of raw converter software, they have to develop a colour profile for new camera. For my taste the specific camera profiles are a better start for working with an image.

You can download the Adobe dng converter for free and convert newer raw files to dng and process them with old software. But again your software will not have specific colour profiles for the newer camera, you get a flat start.

They look flat and boring because of the large dynamic range. They need to be edited to improve. This is valid for all large DR files. So the fact that they look the way they do proves that theya re unedited, not the other way around.

 

[rscheffler]

You can tell the files have been edited, if you run ExifTool on them. You will see the Adobe LR edits in the -XMP-crss tag space.

There is an option somewhere in Lightroom to reset the develop settings to default and thus remove whatever edits were done to those DNGs. No need to go hunting for 'unedited' DNGs.

 

[Chuck Albertson]

Marko is right - LR 6.8 has a profile for the M10. It seems to have a bit more saturation than the Adobe Standard profile, but mind you that's based on a small sample of shots in the Leica Botique at Glazer's - lots of flaming red.

 

[Godfrey]

There is an option somewhere in Lightroom to reset the develop settings to default and thus remove whatever edits were done to those DNGs. No need to go hunting for 'unedited' DNGs.

In the Library module, in the Quick Develop panel, at the bottom is a button to reset to defaults.

In the Develop module, there's a button to reset to defaults at the bottom of the right-hand fold out tool panel.

G

 

[:: Mark]

When I open one of those M10 raw files from the Leica website in Capture One then I can open the file but the colours look flat and boring because there is no M10 profile in the software. So Capture One applies some generic DNG profile.

In the Colour tab under "Base Characteristics" make sure (i) that the ICC profile is DNG File Neutral, and the curve is set to something sensible (I use "Film High Contrast").

This will take the colour profile from the DNG file - ie whatever Leica has programmed in to the camera and the results should match in-camera JPEG output, for example. The curve setting will give a more pleasing result than a straight linear mapping.

 

[willie_901]

There is an option somewhere in Lightroom to reset the develop settings to default and thus remove whatever edits were done to those DNGs. No need to go hunting for 'unedited' DNGs.

Yes, this is certainly the case. LR CC contains a Development Preset named "zeroed". I don't know if this resets everything or not.

Years ago I set all rendering parameters to zero manually. Then I saved my own User Preset.

One can also reset the Camera Profile to Adobe Standard. Adobe Standard is the default for manybrands' raw files... but not all of them.

There are more reset options in the LR Preferences. I don't use these.