Uneven frame spacing, User error?

[Soeren]

Hi All
A few days ago I developed two rolls of Tri-x from my Ikonta 531/16 in Diafine and besides finding one of them to be backwards (numbers etc running opposite way) one had very tight spacing between the frames to allmost overlaping. The frame edges on that roll also are rounded and fuzzy almost holgalike. Did I fail to load that roll correctly?
Best regards

 

[rxmd]

Tigt frame spacing is not uncommon on some Ikonta models. I had a Super Ikonta where the frames would run into each other if I didn't spool an extra piece of paper into the roll.

 

[Soeren]

I had that in mind but why is one roll perfect spaced and with sharp edges and the other tight and with fuzzy rounded edges?
Best regards

 

[rxmd]

I don't have an Ikonta here to compare with, but that looks indeed like a loading problem. Are the images in focus? Is the one with the rounded edges the one that is running backwards?

 

[sevo]

All Ikontas and Super Ikontas with frame counter (indeed, just about every 120 camera guessing the frame by spool revolutions) have too tight spacing with contemporary film. Since their time, the strength of the cover paper has been reduced and some extra winds of leader and trailing paper added, so that the old assumptions built into their mechanism don't work any more. Cameras with a counter capstan (like the Bessa66 or Welta Perfekta) still count flawlessly.

It would be possible to cut new cam wheels to match the modern spool layout, but so far nobody seems to have attempted that.

Sevo

 

[rxmd]

As I said, you can work around it to some extent by spooling an extra length of paper into the takeup spool onto the back of the roll you're loading.

 

[Soeren]

I don't have an Ikonta here to compare with, but that looks indeed like a loading problem. Are the images in focus? Is the one with the rounded edges the one that is running backwards?

Yes but now I don't think that has abything to do with the problem since I have found more rolls of that kind. that was just a coincidence. Ill take better care in the future and do some notes as well 🙂
Best regards

 

[FallisPhoto]

Hi All
A few days ago I developed two rolls of Tri-x from my Ikonta 531/16 in Diafine and besides finding one of them to be backwards (numbers etc running opposite way) one had very tight spacing between the frames to allmost overlaping. The frame edges on that roll also are rounded and fuzzy almost holgalike. Did I fail to load that roll correctly?
Best regards

It may not be you. Back in the day, when those cameras were being made, film bases were a lot thicker. It could be a problem with your pressure plate not pushing a thinner film against the frame. Then again, it might be pushing it INTO the frame. Try a few rolls of Plus-X (has a thicker film base than most) and see if the problem disappears. If it does, that's what is going wrong.

 

[dave61]

Added leader paper length?

Added leader paper length?

How long should the added section of leader paper be, given that added paper is same thickness as leader on film?

 

[FallisPhoto]

best to do your own test with the film and camera u use but i've had it work with about 8 inches of added leader, i prefer to just pre-prepare a few spools first before going out, by wrapping some ordinary masking tape tape around the spool 3 or so times and cutting slits in the tape, that way your not fiddling around with taping leaders while juggling the camera out and about 'in the field' .

even though the common theory is that the older films had thicker backing i think that Zeiss pulled a page from the kodak play book and had slightly thicker spools and or paper backing to their film, they recomended that Zeiss film be used in their camera.
i say that because i have some other non Zeiss camera (w/auto frame counter) from that time that work fine with modern film, i have other brand film complete with its backing from the early years and it doesnt seem that much different, and also because i remember reading info from Zeiss once that said something to the effect that they used different film backing/base and/or spool thickness.......perhaps a combination of these things

Maybe that's why I've heard that the most effective way of dealing with the frame spacing problem is to use two layers of backing paper.

 

[FallisPhoto]

probably Charles, but that is a hassle dont you think, to have to unwrap and undo rolls of film before going out and then re-roll them up with another layer , risking leaks etc. imho its easier to have a few spare spools with some tape around them to add the thickness. also that way if you dont use the film in your pocket it hasnt been opened and can be used for a different camera (non zeiss auto film counter)

Yeah, it's a hassel, but no more than respooling 620. As for the film in my pocket, my pockets can't hold my film. I have been keeping four 20-roll bricks of 120 and at least four 10-roll bricks of 35mm onhand for a long time now. Having 4-5 rolls of film rolled up for a Zeiss isn't that big a sacrifice. I've also got a few rolls of 127 and 620, btw. I mean, you're not really a photographer until you have bought that second refrigerator/freezer just for film and paper.

As for risking leaks... What kind of darkroom do you have anyway?

 

[dave61]

Room For Veggies?

Room For Veggies?

I mean, you're not really a photographer until you have bought that second refrigerator/freezer just for film and paper.
As for risking leaks... What kind of darkroom do you have anyway?

So I'm not the only non-professional photographer who has a fridge just for film? I feel better knowing I'm not as eccentric as I thought.
For me, it was a matter of preserving my marriage. My wife was distressed that she didn't have room for fresh meats + veggies.
😀
I've bought a lot of film lately. So many great films get killed off (i.e. Kodachrome, Verichrome Pan), I don't know if Tri-X is next. Gotta stock up.

As far as light leaks, why not prepare film and load camera in a changing bag? Changing bags are small + light, you could carry one in your pocket.

 

[FallisPhoto]

i dont mean risking light leaks in the darkroom while rolling but when out in the field, juggling the camera with its back open pulling out the roll from your pocket (or maybe camera bag) that has been hand wound with an extra layer of backing, has the potential to not be wound tight and also not fit perfectly on the spool with the extra thickness, its possible to get leaks at the film edges, more particularly on the beginning of the roll...just makes more sense to me to have a few spools that the center has been thickned by wrapping a few layers of tape around, only need to do it the once, from then on the same spools can be re-used next time

got the extra freezer btw ...

Uh... You have the same potential light leak problem with the tape. It's still going to bring the film much nearer the edge of the spool.

 

[hanskerensky]

I used the same method as Chippy several times. Some layers of masking tape on the empty spool and cutting slits in the tape where the filmslip has to go through.

Worked like a charm every time !

Luckily until now no lightleaks on the film near the spool edges :=)

When removing the finished film i try to do this always in a as dark as possible place and then wrap aluminium kitchen-foil around the full spool.

 

[ZeissFan]

This is the Super Ikonta III (not a regular Ikonta), right?

I've encountered the same thing. I'm probably going to give the wooden spool a go the next time that I use the camera. And then after that, I'll try wrapping some gaffer's tape around the spool.

 

[FallisPhoto]

seems there is no convincing you😕 all i can say is give each way a try and i am positive you will prefer to add tape to the take up spool, no mucking around with re-spooling and making sure to wind on tight and snug, no mucking around out in the field when you want to reload and take pictures, no need to go to the darkroom or muck around with change bags!

Oh, the tape trick is a lot easier and it often works -- but sometimes it doesn't. It works with some cameras and doesn't with others. If it works with your camera, that is obviously the way to go with it, because it is indeed a lot less trouble. The thing with two pieces of backing paper works almost every time. With a few of the worst offenders, nothing will do but making up your own backing paper.

 

[Nickon51]

The Super Ikonta 3 spaces the film by turning the takeup spool. A set amount each frame. It doesn't use the Kodak method of a roller against the film to measure frame length. That may be why you have different results with different cameras.
Both methods rely on film/paper thickness. The SI 3 and like that use the takeup spool method rely on the fact that each frame will make the spool bigger and hence turn it less at the end of the film. The Kodak method is subject to roller slip problems with thinner film.
Both methods need the rollers and counter mechanism to be working well and adjusted if necessary.
Cheers
Greg