Spoks
Well-known
Olsen,
Your father served first in Sq. 330 at Iceland with Northrops and then at Sq. 334 with Mosquitoes, right? Then it must have been the Mosquito Mrk. VI - Fighter/bomber version, - with cannons in the nose. Not the IV bomber version w/glass nose. Sq. 334 had only the Mrk VI version.
Olsen
Well-known
Spoks,
You are absolutely right. It's me føcking up the latin numbers. My father first went to 'Little Norway' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Norway )for flight training, - actually only Toronto Flying Club when he went trough there in late 40' - early 41'. Then with 330 sq. to Akurøyri, Iceland, then to Leuchards Scotland with Sq. 333 'B-wing' - which had the 'Mosquitoes mark six'. This wing was later formed as a new squadron; sq. 334. Both served under British Coastal Command. But he also served at other british units within the BCC. Which sq. numbers, I don't remember anymore. He also managed to put in a year at Dartmouth Naval Collage http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britannia_Royal_Naval_College before coming home in late 45'. My father died in 86'. They dropped bombs, mines, debt chargers, fired rockets and cannons against, mostly, German shipping.
One plane from the 333/443 sq. has survived the war and is exhibited at Norsk Luftfartsmuseum (http://www.luftfart.museum.no/Utstillinger/default.htm ). The only surviving Northrop N-3PB is exhibited at the 'flight collection' at Gardermoen, Oslo.
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John Robertson
Well-known
Home of the FED camera factory (Leica copy), a bit ironic!!
Melvin
Flim Forever!
Olsen
Well-known
The picture bellow catched my attention. 'The last holiday in Berlin', sayes the text. This is towards the end of the war when the Germans understand that the war is going wrong. The Russians are advancing fast. The guy on leave is the young fellow in the white jacket. He later fought in Italy, but managed to desert to the Americans and survived the war. - Miraculously, after have fought at Monte Casino, one of the toughest fights in the west. Most likely, we see here his mother, father, sister and grandmother.
It is the faces of the women that catches my attention. Particularly the grandmother. She reminds me of my own grandmother. She had two sons out fighting during the war and her husband in a consentration camp (Grini, Norway). She was worried sick about them. She carried this worry with her for the rest of her life. Still, my grandmother was lucky. Her husband and sons came home. Nor was her home overrun by clashing armies. She lived in Bergen, on the west coast of Norway.
The family we see here lived in Berlin. The eye of the storm to come. What happened to them? Did they survive?
It is the faces of the women that catches my attention. Particularly the grandmother. She reminds me of my own grandmother. She had two sons out fighting during the war and her husband in a consentration camp (Grini, Norway). She was worried sick about them. She carried this worry with her for the rest of her life. Still, my grandmother was lucky. Her husband and sons came home. Nor was her home overrun by clashing armies. She lived in Bergen, on the west coast of Norway.
The family we see here lived in Berlin. The eye of the storm to come. What happened to them? Did they survive?
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David Murphy
Veteran
Actually the visibility that cockpit affords is quite unique and in that way enhances safety. Pilots spend a whole lot of the time trying not to bump into other airplanes (ruins your day). I'm sure it made formation flying much easier.
John Robertson
Well-known
Possibly but my old Leica 11 (1938model) also overlaps the sprocket holes especially with either a 35 or 28mm lens.
M4cr0s
Back In Black
It might be us reading too much into what was maybe just a snap, but I think you are right, there's something, especially in the faces of the women.
My family had one member dying in Sachsenhausen after one of the many very amateurish resistance groups (I think his entire part was just stealing some equipment) was cracked. Another one was an anti-commie and I believe he died at Narva or just before or after that battle. The details are a bit muddy. They who knew him say he wasn't really into the nazi stuff. He wanted to fight the russkies and he believed those that did could end up forming the backbone in a future Norwegian army when the war was over and the Germans left. He also briefly fought the Germans as a conscript at the battle of Narvik during the German invasion of Norway.
The last "war story" I got is from my grandfather, a simple farmer/fisherman like the rest of my family, who briefly hid and helped a German deserter to flee to Sweden. The Swedes sent him back and he was shot. True to his word, he did however not give them up and they got through the war safe and sound. My dad however, lived in the part of Northern Norway that was burnt by the retreating Germans when the russkies advanced down Finnmark county. He was born in October 1944 and thus he was just a toddler when he was "evacuated" the dreadful winter of 44/45. They where very poor and lost everything. On the other hand, as his mother put it, they did not have much to loose anyway.
/Mac
Paul T.
Veteran
Coincidentally, I just read a couple of books on this sibject, with a huge amount of first person recollections from Battle of Britain pilots.
In the early days of the Battle the Brit Hurricans (who dealt with the bombers) would clamp themselves onto their tails.
As time went on, a lot of them favoured head-on attacks. They would pop out of the clouds, and head straight for that open, visible cockpit, firiing as they went. From their direction, there was no armour plate to protect the crew. THey liked to see that they'd actually kllled the pilots, perhaps a couple more of the crew, enjoyed seeing them run from their seats or try and escape.
THey felt their nation was being terrorised, and by now wanted to terrorise the Luftwaffe crew in turn; they were quite happy to have the plane return if the pilots were dead, so the remaining crew could tell their comrades what awaited them.
There are a lot of almost-loving stories in this vein, describing the pleasure they got in killing the people who wanted to subjugate them.
Olsen
Well-known
Which tells me that nothing is won by deliberately bombing civilians.
The result is only an even more motivated enemy. This can be seen from The Battle of Britain, the Bombing of German cities, bombing of Hanoi, North Vietnam and the Israeli bombing of Beiruth, - and Gaza. We even see signs of a more motivated enemy facing NATO and US forces in Afganistan after some distasterous bombings of civilians lately.
This is a very important lesson to learn: Don't bomb civilians.
Sparrow
Veteran
I read somewhere that the average combat life-span of a RAF fighter pilot in the battle of Britain was 22 seconds, and 80% of sorties made contact (or that could have been the interception rate)
Either way one can understand their enthusiasm.
Either way one can understand their enthusiasm.
M4cr0s
Back In Black
I wonder what the American or British bomber pilots that turned Hamburg or Tokyo into smoldering ruins thought about the ordeal, especially retrospect. The fire bombing of Tokyo was especially devastating due to the wast number of buildings of wood and paper. They killed more than 100 000 in one massive bomb raid. To compare with the more famous incidents with the bomb, I believe the immediate number of lives lost from the Hiroshima bomb was about 150 000, and some 100 000 from the Nagasaki bomb.
There was this "bright" idea that "strategic" bombing would and could force an enemy into submission. That never happened of course. Even the target-specific bombing on German industry did not manage to really halt production. In '43 and '44 when the bombing of German industry really got underway they moved underground or relocated critical industry to remote locations. Actually the production numbers, as in how many tanks, planes and rounds of ammunition produced increased a lot in the last years of the war despite of the bombing. They lacked competent manpower to use the equipment though. The production numbers did not really start to drop before Germany itself was invaded.
Basically there are a lot of indicators that the strategic bombing used by all parties simply did not win or loose the war, it was just a mindless slaughter of civilians. Or to use the modern term - "terror". If you're looking for numbers, some 60 000 Brits and 2 million Germans died from bombing alone. Nothing compared of course, to the unbelievable civilian casualties of nations such as Poland (almost 20 % of the total pop.), USSR (~17 million) and the Balkans. Let's hope mankind never again makes civilians the main target of a war...
/Mac
_goodtimez
Well-known
Stylish Haircuts ! indeed the same as on my IIIc Manual.
Mr_Flibble
In Tabulas Argenteas Refero
Olsen, thank you for sharing your father's story. My grandfather fought in the Peel region in the Netherlands in May 1940 and was eventually taken prisoner.
Many POW were released after the surrender to return to their homes. He remained a father and farmer for the rest of the war. Both my parents were born during the occupation.
It wasn't until two years ago that I saw photos of my grandfather in his uniform during the Mobilization.
A friend of mine is currently trying to get hold of a photo album from May 1940 of my home city. Looking forward to seeing them.
My home city did only suffer minor damage from the war, with 95 deaths to mourn. In the winter of 1944 and 1945 the fierce Battle of Capelsche Veer was fought out just too the North West.
Many POW were released after the surrender to return to their homes. He remained a father and farmer for the rest of the war. Both my parents were born during the occupation.
It wasn't until two years ago that I saw photos of my grandfather in his uniform during the Mobilization.
A friend of mine is currently trying to get hold of a photo album from May 1940 of my home city. Looking forward to seeing them.
My home city did only suffer minor damage from the war, with 95 deaths to mourn. In the winter of 1944 and 1945 the fierce Battle of Capelsche Veer was fought out just too the North West.
Sparrow
Veteran
That is wrong, sorry, workers with no housing are less efficient and caring for the injured diverts resources bombing must have an impact on moral, Hermann Goering said he realiser the war was lost when he saw a Mustang escorting US bombers over Berlin, so it worked on him at least.
Churchill put about the story that the bombing in the east-end of London was "stiffening the resolve of the population" it was propaganda, he ordered a million cardboard coffins and thousands of tones of quicklime at the same time, fearing typhoid and the like, moral was collapsing. luckily the Luftwaffe switched to night bombing, which proved much less efficient.
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M4cr0s
Back In Black
I am not wrong. Production DID increase, it's a well-documented fact referred to in a lot of history books and other WW2 literature. I'm betting the "imported" workforce (forced workers and KZ prisoners) made it easier Germans though... The bombing of Germany did simply not win the war, do you think the allies wanted to invade Europe and Germany itself and suffer the casualties?
What Goering was thinking of was the fact that they had lost the air superiority, which again meant that the ground war was lost. He knew perfectly well that the close relationship and communication between tactical bombing and the ground forces was one of the key reasons the Germans did so well in '39 - '41. They could not possibly beat the numerical superiority of the allies on the battlefield without the advantage of air superiority.
/Mac
Paul T.
Veteran
This is really a question of viewpoint. THere were huge resources - as many as a million people - diverted to anti aircraft defences, which would otherwise have been sent to the Eastern or Western front. Massive engineering projects were reuiqred, to bury V2 or U-boat prodcution sites deep underground.
In Victor Klemperer's amazing war time diaries (he was a jew in Dresedn) he describes the morning after the allied raid. He was scheduled to report fo the Gestapo HQ that morning, the last of hundres of ejws of his acquaintance, all of whom had by now been gassed. The gestapo HQ was gone; the Zeiss building, where he had up till recently been working, producing sights for tanks, was gone. THousands of civilians had died, in the most horrific fashion; one man was saved.
Some of those thousands had given Klemperer sympathic glances - none of them had stood up to save him. SHould they have died? I don't know of any form of mathematics that can measure one death against another, apply an equation that makes sense of it.
Nathan67
Member
Well I enjoyed looking at this wonderful photographic find. Thanks for posting.
Now to find some Isopan F
Now to find some Isopan F
M4cr0s
Back In Black
Of course, there are always several sides to the statistics. There's little doubt that the bombing was a major "inconvenience" for the industry, and that it diverted resources from the front and elsewhere. You should keep in mind though, to use the AA defenses as an example, that a lot of those manning AA batteries where teenagers and old men, unfit for front duty. That said, the Germans wasted resources on a lot of rubbish, if you think cynical about it. For instance the thousands of men manning (guards) KZ camps and the numerous trains with jews and POWs bogging up the strained railroad network (they had priority even over ammunition trains!). Still does not mean terror bombing with civilians as prime target was a good idea.
/Mac
N
Nikon Bob
Guest
Thanks to the OP for posting the link to the photos, which I enjoyed viewing. I thought the technical qualities of the photos were very good considering when they were made. The content interested me also and I think you could get the same type of photos from the time of the Roman Legions if there had been cameras then. Point being that soldiers, no matter the time period, are solders. The uniforms and equipment may change but the human story is the same. The strategic bombing of cities by the allies during WWII did contribute to ultimate victory but in no way was it the sole reason for victory. This is borne out in the United States Strategic Bombing Survey done at the end of WWII.
Bob
Bob