Using flash with either Fuji GW/GSW 690 III or Mamiya 7II

[ymc226]

I don't know anything about flashes but did use a flash (Nikon SB-800 http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/800752888-USE/Nikon_4801_SB_800_Speedlight.html
) on my Nikon F6 which calculated all of the settings automatically.

If I want to use this flash on my MF rangefinders, is there any resource on the web which I can read to figure out how correctly set up my camera and flash?

 

[furcafe]

Dante Stella has some good primers:

http://www.dantestella.com/technical/flashguide.html

http://www.dantestella.com/technical/fill.html

But any article/tutorial on manual or auto (non-TTL) flashes could help. 1 nice thing about the Fuji & Mamiya models you mention is that you can use flash @ up to 1/500th sec. because of their leaf shutters.

Does the manual for your SB-800 have a section for using it on non-TTL cameras?

I don't know anything about flashes but did use a flash (Nikon SB-800 http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/800752888-USE/Nikon_4801_SB_800_Speedlight.html
) on my Nikon F6 which calculated all of the settings automatically.

If I want to use this flash on my MF rangefinders, is there any resource on the web which I can read to figure out how correctly set up my camera and flash?

 

[ymc226]

I will go home and try to find the manual for the flash. Thanks for the links. I have a few questions.

The guide number is usually rated for ISO 100 film. If I rate my film at 200, how will that affect the GN? The SB 800 has a GN of 125 feet at its wide setting based on ISO 100 film. Is the GN doubled?

If I use the flash in manual mode, after I calculate the GN and set the aperture appropriately, what shutter speed do I use? Is it the fastest sync speed the camera has?

 

[Benjamin Marks]

Guide number changes with ISO rating and it is related to the aperture, not the shutter speed. This is because the duration of an electronic flash is on the order of 1/10,000 of a second, so your shutter speed is irrelevant if the flash is the only meaningful light source. This is particularly true with an in-the-lens shutter, like with a Hassleblad 500 series, your Fuji rangefinders, Mamiya 6/7 etc. By contrast, a focal plane shutter drags a slit across the film gate at a particular speed. The higher the shutter speed, the narrower the slit. So if the shutter speed is too high, the 1/10,000 flash goes off while the slit is part-way across the film gate, resulting in a negative only part of which is exposed.

If you are looking for a balance of flash and natural light (e.g. using the flash to "punch up" highlights in a flat scene) then it's another matter. Get a flash meter, or do some experimentation.

To get back to your original question, the GN does not double with a doubling of film speed, it is multiplied by 1.4 (just like the progression of f:stops, rounded), so if you have a GN of 80 for ISO 100, you will have a GN of about 110 for ISO 200. Make sense?

[Edit: the answer to your last question depends on what results you are going for and what your ambient lighting is. If you are taking pictures in a night-club with no ambient light, then it doesn't matter. All the light hitting the film will be the light put out by your flash. If you are in a setting with a good amount of ambient light (that is, not dark) like a beach after sunset, then the flash synch speed will be more likely to freeze motion, and a slower shutter speed will allow the ambient light to make some exposure on the film, while the "pop" of the flash will freeze a subject with or without a blurred or ghost-image, depending on the relative movement of you and the subject. This is all highly context-dependent and will require some experimentation by you to understand what you flash will and won't do.]

Good luck and let us know how it all turns out.

Ben Marks

 

[pgeobc]

I like the previous repsonses a lot and figure that they will do you a lot of good. I use my Mamiya 7II and my Fuji GF670 both with my Metz 45CL4-Digital, but use it on manual mode or the mode that is automatically determined inside the flash unit--those with a standard PC cord. As you are aware, there are no in-camera functions on these cameras except the flash sync.

You should, as he mentioned, either use a manual guide number, or use a totally in-flash-unit automatic function.

BTW--I had a Nikon SB600 and never could get it to put out at the guide number for which it was rated. I tested it on three flash meters. So test yours against a good flash meter or slide exposures before you settle on a permanent guide number.

 

[ymc226]

Thanks for the responses. They are very informative.

I am at home and got my SB800 out. I set the flash to automatic and the ISO to 200. The flash as I understand it, has a light sensor that controls how much light it puts out to expose the film to an average of 18% gray. I can also specify what aperture the camera's lens is opened to.

I kind of understand that any extra time the shutter is open will let the ambient light contribute to the total exposure. My question is what range of shutter speeds can I choose and how do I meter with my in camera or Voigtlander II meter? As the cameras in question (Mamiya 7II and Fuji GSW) have in lens shutters, I can sync at a higher than normal speeds.

Is an aperture of a 35mm format lens the same as in the MF format lens? The flash allows me to set the aperture so I figure that is how it calculates along with the ISO setting how much light to put out.

 

[htimsdj]

The SB-800 will work very well on the Mamiya 7II in Automatic mode. It will also work properly in manual mode, but you'll have to decide the flash calculation yourself.

 

[Benjamin Marks]

I kind of understand that any extra time the shutter is open will let the ambient light contribute to the total exposure. My question is what range of shutter speeds can I choose and how do I meter with my in camera or Voigtlander II meter? As the cameras in question (Mamiya 7II and Fuji GSW) have in lens shutters, I can sync at a higher than normal speeds.

Is an aperture of a 35mm format lens the same as in the MF format lens? The flash allows me to set the aperture so I figure that is how it calculates along with the ISO setting how much light to put out.

Tricky question. I don't have a quick answer. When you combine ambient and flash exposure there are a lot of variables. I think one reason that flash meters, and cameras with a lot of sophisticated metering, sold well in the days of film is that this stuff is highly contextual and a pain to calculate. You can choose any shutter speed with your Mamiya 7II at which you think you can hold the camera; obviously if you choose a combination of shutter speed and aperture that would result in perfect exposure or overexposure without a flash, adding more light is going to be problematic.

Your second question is easier. F-Stop is just a ratio between the lens length and the physical opening of the lens. So f:2.8 is f:2.8 regardless of format, lens length etc.

Ben

 

[ymc226]

My question is this: if I use the Mamiya 7II in auto exposure mode, it sets the shutter speed automatically after I pick the aperture. With the flash on and set to the corresponding aperture, do I let the camera continue to choose the shutter speed or can I manually choose a faster shutter speed as it would not need the slower non-flashed setting in order to freeze the action and avoid motion blurring.

 

[charjohncarter]

One thing that helped me with flash knowledge way back when I finally had enough money to buy an electronic flash was to start out with manual. I think all flashes have a f-stop/aperture sliding guide, use that on a test roll. (by the way set the ISO on the guide, I have forgotten at times). Then learn fill, bounce, indoor matching ambient (if possible) and also over powering the ambient light (all with manual). Once you know these basics which really are not that hard you will be able use auto with some confidence. My most sensible purchase was a flash meter, now I hardly ever miss if there is time to use it. Auto or TTL is shoot and hope, but they are much better than than they were when I bought that first flash.

 

[Ranchu]

My question is this: if I use the Mamiya 7II in auto exposure mode, it sets the shutter speed automatically after I pick the aperture. With the flash on and set to the corresponding aperture, do I let the camera continue to choose the shutter speed or can I manually choose a faster shutter speed as it would not need the slower non-flashed setting in order to freeze the action and avoid motion blurring.

I'm not familiar with your camera, but in general you can do either. The only problems would be with a focal plane shutter and the AE picking a shutter speed over the fastest sync speed. You have a leaf shutter so it'll sync at all speeds. You can dial in negative exposure compensation in the cameras AE to darken (or + to lighten) the ambient to various degrees. You'll have to experiment with film or a flash meter to see how the camera's auto and flash's auto work together, you could start around -1 1/3 on the camera, flat on the flash and see what it looks like. There's a lot of variables though.

 

[Ranchu]

Forgot another gotcha. If you use the cameras AE in dim light, you might wind up with 4 second shutter speeds. Manual on the camera will work much better.

 

[Benjamin Marks]

My question is this: if I use the Mamiya 7II in auto exposure mode, it sets the shutter speed automatically after I pick the aperture. With the flash on and set to the corresponding aperture, do I let the camera continue to choose the shutter speed or can I manually choose a faster shutter speed as it would not need the slower non-flashed setting in order to freeze the action and avoid motion blurring.

I guess the real answer is that you cannot turn off your brain unless you have a fully dedicated TTL flash system with which you are very experienced. Since you don't have this, you'll just have to shoot some film and figure it out. Think about it logically too. If you are in a dim setting and the M7II is telling you at f:4 that the proper exposure is 1/4 of a second, what do you think is going to happen when a 1/10,000 sec. strobe pops? Unless the strobe and your camera are talking, or unless your camera can sense how much light has hit the film, you are going to get an overexposed negative (or portions). But the hard thing to explain is that this is totally scene dependent. If you are shooting a portrait on a beach after sunset, you have a totally different lighting set up than if you are in a small room with white walls.

Ben

 

[bobwith2bees]

My question is this: if I use the Mamiya 7II in auto exposure mode, it sets the shutter speed automatically after I pick the aperture. With the flash on and set to the corresponding aperture, do I let the camera continue to choose the shutter speed or can I manually choose a faster shutter speed as it would not need the slower non-flashed setting in order to freeze the action and avoid motion blurring.

YMC226:

I have both the GSW Fuji and Mamiya 7 (1st version). I don't use flash a lot but I have an old SB-28 which I change to Auto Mode and Manually zoom the head to the correct perspective. On the LED panel in auto mode it will give you the F stop and display the range. I usually set my camera to manual mode, and select an appropriate F stop, perhaps f8 or 5.6 and shutter around 1/30 so I can get some ambient background lit. Your F stop controls the exposure. your shutter speed controls how bright your background is.

for tricky lighting I use my flash meter

I checked and you can change your SB800 to non-TTL auto mode

bob

 

[Mablo]

Here is a good reading:

http://www.cs.mtu.edu/~shene/DigiCam/User-Guide/FZ-10/Ext-Flash/Flash-Auto-Mode.html

Don't mind about the digicam thing. Flash is flash with digitals and film cameras. The Auto mode (Automatic) is so good that when you get the hang of it you won't need any other flash mode ever. It can be used with any camera if you know the sync speed restrictions. Older cameras usually don't have limited sync speeds except Leica type cameras which are hopeless with flash.

 

[shorelineae]

Here is a good reading:

http://www.cs.mtu.edu/~shene/DigiCam/User-Guide/FZ-10/Ext-Flash/Flash-Auto-Mode.html

Don't mind about the digicam thing. Flash is flash with digitals and film cameras. The Auto mode (Automatic) is so good that when you get the hang of it you won't need any other flash mode ever. It can be used with any camera if you know the sync speed restrictions. Older cameras usually don't have limited sync speeds except Leica type cameras which are hopeless with flash.

That was an excellent, informative read. Thanks for sharing. (Such an old thread!)