Using Flashbulbs with Leica IIIF

[AnthonyM]

I have cases of flashbulbs in my closet that I have saved over the last 38 years. I did weddings with them and my 4x5 in the early 1960s.

Now, I have several school accounts that I will be doing yearbook candids for. The camera I will use will be my IIIF black dial, since I want a nice retro looking black and white image. I was using my Speed Graphic and flashbulbs for this, but it was overkill in a yearbook. I know the Leica with flash bulbs will give me a great looking image too.

In the past, flashbulbs, in my opinion, have always given me a better and brighter quality of light. I noticed even better shadow detail in the photos taken with flashbulbs. They also tend to make ladies faces more wrinkle free looking due to their longer burn time and light characteristics.

DAG is presently overhauling my IIIF black dial camera and lens. I am in the process of buying another Leica IIIF , a red dial.

I want to get the retro look I got 45-50 years ago, so I decided to use flashbulbs for some of the indoor shots .

The guide numbers on my M3 and Press 25 bulbs are huge. These bulbs are much more powerful than my Vivitar 283. In addition, they are simply a lot of fun to use.

I know that the setting for electronic flash on the IIIF black dial camera is 1/30th of a sec. with the bottom delay dial set to 2.

Does anyone know what setting to use on the bottom sync dial for flash bulbs?

I would image the shutter speed would still be the same at 1/30th since my bulbs are not focal plane bulbs.

Would the setting be the same for a red dial IIIF?

I just bought a group of 3 Leica Ceyoo fan flash guns on ebay which should arrive in a week. Does anyone know the type of battery it takes and if they are still available?

 

[Luddite Frank]

Anthony,

What type / # flash-bulbs do you have ?

Batteries:

The black CEYOO flash had two options: either a cartridge that held four AA penlite batteries, or a B-C cartridge that takes a # 412, 22-1/2 volt battery (rectangular "brick" that is similar in size & shape to a 9-volt, but the contact buttons on are on the ends ( one on each end, in the center).

The ivory plastic CHICO flash has two battery options: a bottom-loading cartridge for two AA penlite batteries, or a side-loading cartridge for one # 505 22-1/2 volt battery.

Both batteries area still available; do a Google search on Eveready 505 or Eveready 412, and you'll get hits to about a 1/2-dozen on-line vendors who sell them. I bought one of each this fall, but can't remember where, off-hand. they're about $5 each. ( One of these might be a 525 ?)

At a Christmas party I took some flash-bulb pics with my 1933 Leica F / Summar (sync added later), and the 1930's Leica "blitz-lichthalter" (type VII ?), using a "bayonet to M" adapter and M-3 bulbs ( common enough that I don't mind using them). I used Fuji-color 400 film.

Some of the photos turned-out good, many were quite over-exposed... I really was not bothering to do the "guide-number" /aperture calculation ( to my later regret).

When I got the photos back from Ritz, I was surprised at the punch afforded by the tiny M-3 bulbs... indeed the duration is longer (than electronic flash), thus better filling-in shadow detail... (or bleaching-out faces... : ( ) .

I would guess that my F was synced at 1/30 th... the early '50s editions of Morgan & Lester's Leica Manual all prescribe FP bulbs for the Leica, but the synch charts list sync settings for all the major bulbs available at the time...

You mentioned #25 bulbs: the 1955 edition of the Leica Manual lists the following synch settings :

#5 / 25 / 0 bulbs:

Black-dial: 1/30: 16; 1/40: 11; 1/60: 8; 1/100: 8; 1/200: 4; 1/500: 3.5; 1/1000: 2 .

Red-dial: 1/25: 14; 1/50: 11; 1/75: 6; 1/100:4; 1/200: 2; 1/500:1; 1/1k: 0.


One of the nice things about FP bulbs, is that they have a long-enough duration to allow you to use all those different shutter-speeds, to suit various situations. The other bulbs with the faster burn-time may limit you to the slow synch speed ( 1/30 ).

You mentioned using a 4x5 (press?) camera with bulbs back in the '60s; from my reading, synced cameras with leaf-shutters ( press cameras) are synced at every shutter speed, and can use a larger variety of flash-bulbs, but focal-plane shutters require the longer-burn FP bulbs, so the the shutter curtains have time to reach fully-open as the flash reaches its peak; non-FP bulbs may peak too early, too fast a shutter speed may result in a frame with black margins at either side, due to the shutter not being fully-open.

A few experimental shots will probably determine the optimum settings for your situation.

I love flashbulbs; besides having unique photogrpahic qualities, they have fun "entertainment value", if you want to impress your friends at parties....

But for convenience sake, I'm really liking the Vivitar 252 that came with a recently-acquired Asahi-Pentax SP-500: very compact, and still fully-functional; plus it has the electronic-eye to regulate the flash duration.

One other thought: you may want to get one of the Leica flash-brackets (CTOOM), that allow you to position the flash gun further away from the lens.
I prefer the black metal version; I don't trust 50-year old plastic ( there is an ivory-plastic version of the CTOOM).

The 1955-edition of "The Leica Manual" has a great section on flash-photography with the Leica, as well as being a great source of info.

Enjoy your flashbulbs !

Luddite Frank

 

[MCTuomey]

Fascinating! I'm one of those doofus-types that uses an off-camera, corded SF-20 with my M camera. I'd love to gain the benefit of higher sync speeds using longer duration bulbs ... I'll have to look into this further.

Generally I compensate negatively by 2-3 stops with flash, even off-camera. In my experience, less is more. Slight underexposure is probly a good thing here. Sample below.

One of the benefits of fill-flash IS the use of smaller apertures, giving greater DOF. It enables focusing using one's feet or just leaning back or forth slightly from the waist. More "cushion" for focus error. Makes for quicker shooting.

Thanks for the great post, gents.

 

[Luddite Frank]

I haven't done a enough flash photography of any sort to be "good" at it...

Most of mine has been with a Sunpack tilt/swivel flash that I got in the early '80s... I've been lazy and mostly used it as a bounce-flash ( or with a white paper napkin over the head, secured with a rubber-band...) and relied on the flash's "auto-control" to manage the light output.

Getting into flashbulb photography requires more thought and planning...

It's still fun, though !

LF

 

[Solinar]

Those guide numbers are important, because unlike a modern thyristor, the peak flash duration on these puppies will be longer than any of the fast shutter speeds. Lester & Morgan have flash tables which include both the GN/Sync setting for each shutter speed for the various flash bulbs which in common use in the US during the early 1950's.

Unfortunately, the GN ratings in my 1953 Leica Manual are normalized for much slower film speeds than would be common today.

Here is Frank's table modified for Kodak Plus X rated at ASA 40 and Sylvania 25 bulbs:

Black-dial: 1/30: 150|17; 1/40: 100|11; 1/60: 80|9; 1/100: 68|6; 1/200: 49|4.5; 1/500: 40|3.5; 1/1000: 30|2.5 .

The guide numbers precede the sync dial setting. Notice the diminishing GN as the shutter speeds increase, since a lower and lower percentage of the actual flash duration is captured on film.

As opposed to the expanded tables provided by Lester and Morgan, the official Leitz owner's manual for the IIIf has a much more condensed set of tables.

The above table is for a IIIf RD.

 

[AnthonyM]

Frank, I have cases of M3 bulbs and Press 25s, as well as 288 of the AG1B bulbs that we called "peanuts".

I have an origianl Leica metal flash bracked on order, as well as three CEYOO Leica flashguns. The guy on Ebay only wanted $10 for three of them, all it great condition. Below is the photo he posted of them on the E-bay ad I responded to.

I plan on trying the new Adox ASA 25 film. Perfect for indoor group shots with powerful flashbulbs and a Leica. It is available at Freestyle. I hear it is high in silver content and equal to my old time favorite, Adox KB14, which I used to develope in Neofin Blue back in the good old days.

Thanks gentlemen for the posted replys so far. Flashbulbs are just plain fun to use. It brings back memories of my childhood when I used them all the time in the early 1950s and later, professionally with the 4x5. I am excited to get back to using them with the Leica. It sure beats lugging all of those heavy electronic flash heads, power pack and stands around.

 

[John Shriver]

I have my doubts that a 25 bulb has a long enough peak to possibly be used with a IIIf's focal plane shutter at any speed over 1/30 (the X sync speed). It's an M class flashbulb, short peak for leaf shutter lenses.

Certainly for Canon rangefinders with Flash Unit Y, 1/30 is the top speed with the battery-capacitor power unit. I note it could squeak up to 1/125 with the 4-penlight cell power unit.

Note the comments about Table 2 above -- using the class M flashbulbs is noted as a compromise at best.

What you really want a hoard of is 6 or 26 flashbulbs, FP class, long peak for focal-plane shutters. They will sync with just about any 35mm focal plane camera to 1/1000.

 

[AnthonyM]

John, You are correct about my bulbs not working properly over 1/30th of a second. However, I have tons of them and plan to use them at 1/30th with my camera on a tripod.

The focal plane bulbs you mention are much better if you were going to use faster shutter speeds. I used them on my SPeed Graphic from time to time, since that camera had a focal plane shutter.

The focal plane bulbs are very expensive and not as common as the ones I have. I am planning on doing a group of tests with my bulbs prior to using them.


My Sekonic light meter reads the output of flashbulbs. I have not tested it yet to see how accurate that meter is with flashbulbs. It was designed for electronic flash.

I will develop my own guide numbers based on my equipment and the developer I use.

 

[Luddite Frank]

For what it's worth, being somewhat of a "kid" (40 + ), I still remember Sylvania flashbulbs being sold in the drugs stores when I was a kid (up through high-school, they were still stocked...)...

The commonly available ones were the AG-1B, M-2B / M-3B, and the 5B /25B.

I don't recall ever seeing FP bulbs, 6, or 26 on the shelves... but then I only started paying attention to such things around 1975... ( which is not to say they weren't around, but I don't think they were very common 30 years ago, whereas most drugstores and K-marts still sold the other bulbs mentioned)

I have about six working CEYOOS, and as many working CHICOS... don't know how much I'll use them, but they're fun to have...

I actually carry around one complete CEYOO and some M-3 bulbs in my big Leica kit...

I just double-checked the battery numbers:

22.5 volt CHICO battery: #505 Eveready (NEDA 221, about the size of a AA, but square)

22.5 volt CEYOO battery: # 412 Eveready (NEDA # 215)


Happy flashing !

LF

 

[gertf]

Is there a way of telling whether a CEYOO will take AA batteries or the 512 battery from pictures, for example on eBay?

Cheers,
Gert

 

[George Bonanno]

Flashbulb Warning...

Flashbulb Warning...

You have been informed... flashbulbs are not lawfully allowed because of environmental reasons.

 

[gertf]

George,

How so?

 

[George Bonanno]

Guide Numbers: It's an inverse square law thing...

Guide Numbers: It's an inverse square law thing...

It has to do with the older lead base tips.
According to a reliable source there is more lead in one flashbulb than an entire computer.
Also, flashbulbs are filled with oxygen.
When fired the oxygen is extinguished by the burning process
endangering the environment by depleting oxygen.

There are safety risks too:
Exploding flashbulb envelopes, firing in explosive atmospheres, etc.

Below are examples of illegal flashbulb photo kits.

These spent flashbulbs (dead soldiers) were recently confiscated by a
Mambo dancer secretly working for the FBI in a NYC night club (Plumm).

 

[gertf]

Nice pics, also like your blog, still does not answer my question 🙂

 

[George Bonanno]

My CHICO uses a No. 505 22-1/2 volt battery and my CEYOO uses a No. 412 22-1/2 volt battery.
Personally I know nothing about 1-1/2 volt cell cartridge adaptors for these units.
Maybe Jim Lager has the definitive answer.
If I see him walking the dog I'll inquire and report back.

 

[gertf]

Thank you George.