hexiplex
Well-known
I didn't see a thread about this on here, but I thought I might start one, partly to go through this in my head one more time, it really is a lot to handle, even from the neighbouring country of Sweden. Anyway, here is a link to the details about what has happened: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/24/world/europe/24oslo.html?_r=1&hp
A few words I wrote this morning when I was too sad, angry and confused to get any sleep:
There is something especially harrowing in the realisation that there are people in this world so dedicated to their disturbed ideologies of nationalism that they are willing to slay nearly a hundred of their own countrymen.
The realisation that the right-wing extremists of Scandinavia are not as harmless or as laughable as many, myself perhaps among them have thought is a hard thing to wake up to. But I hope that maybe, just maybe the horrible events at Utøya and in central Oslo will make people realize what values parties like Sverigedemokraterna, Österreichische Volkspartei, Danskt Folkeparti, Mouvement pour la France, Framskrittspartiet, Schweizerische Volkspartei and all the other far-right parties in Europe really represent. Ultimately, it is the views of these parties, and parties yet worse than them that have lead to these events.
The rhetoric of these parties has brought, and continues to bring fear and hate into the hearts and minds of millions of Europeans. And it is a sad fact that that fear and hate tragically culminated yesterday at Utøya and in central Oslo. I mourn the deaths of the young people at Utøya, and I mourn the deaths of the people in the cabinet office in Oslo. But I also mourn a form of innocence lost. Ignorance and laziness is no longer an alternative, the people who hold these sick ideals must be met at every opportunity given. The rights to hold their beliefs maintained, but the expression of those beliefs must never again go unchallenged.
My thoughts go out to my brothers and sisters in Norway. I am crying with you infront of NRK... I think all Scandinavians lost something yesterday. I know I certainly did when I woke up to the news that both the shooting at Utøya and the bombing of the cabinet office in Oslo are likely to be the work of Anders Behring Breivik and the right-wing extremist group he had connections with. The foundation of social welfare, strong democracy and respect for all human beings that the Scandinavian nations have rested upon since the 1970's has been really shook to it's already slowly crumbling core, perhaps that shock is what it will take to restore it.
I hope all Norwegian RFF'ers and their families are safe and sound.
A few words I wrote this morning when I was too sad, angry and confused to get any sleep:
There is something especially harrowing in the realisation that there are people in this world so dedicated to their disturbed ideologies of nationalism that they are willing to slay nearly a hundred of their own countrymen.
The realisation that the right-wing extremists of Scandinavia are not as harmless or as laughable as many, myself perhaps among them have thought is a hard thing to wake up to. But I hope that maybe, just maybe the horrible events at Utøya and in central Oslo will make people realize what values parties like Sverigedemokraterna, Österreichische Volkspartei, Danskt Folkeparti, Mouvement pour la France, Framskrittspartiet, Schweizerische Volkspartei and all the other far-right parties in Europe really represent. Ultimately, it is the views of these parties, and parties yet worse than them that have lead to these events.
The rhetoric of these parties has brought, and continues to bring fear and hate into the hearts and minds of millions of Europeans. And it is a sad fact that that fear and hate tragically culminated yesterday at Utøya and in central Oslo. I mourn the deaths of the young people at Utøya, and I mourn the deaths of the people in the cabinet office in Oslo. But I also mourn a form of innocence lost. Ignorance and laziness is no longer an alternative, the people who hold these sick ideals must be met at every opportunity given. The rights to hold their beliefs maintained, but the expression of those beliefs must never again go unchallenged.
My thoughts go out to my brothers and sisters in Norway. I am crying with you infront of NRK... I think all Scandinavians lost something yesterday. I know I certainly did when I woke up to the news that both the shooting at Utøya and the bombing of the cabinet office in Oslo are likely to be the work of Anders Behring Breivik and the right-wing extremist group he had connections with. The foundation of social welfare, strong democracy and respect for all human beings that the Scandinavian nations have rested upon since the 1970's has been really shook to it's already slowly crumbling core, perhaps that shock is what it will take to restore it.
I hope all Norwegian RFF'ers and their families are safe and sound.
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Roger Hicks
Veteran
Not really. Being willing to kill ANYONE for a sick ideology is horrifying, whether they are your own countrymen or not. Would it be better or worse if they'd murdered 100 Americans, Chinese or Greeks?
And, of course, most ideologies are pretty sick, when taken to the extremes.
Cheers,
R.
hexiplex
Well-known
Of course it is, but this, this is something of a shock for me, and I believe for many people in the Scandinavian countries. Internal terrorism is old news in America, Spain, Ireland, The UK and in many other places, but nothing quite like this, nothing so ruthlessly aimed at destroying ideological opponents and harming democracy has really ever occurred in the nordic countries in modern times. I never said that it would be better if they had killed an equal amount of any other nationality, so don't try to put words in my mouth, please. I just think that this, this kind of hatred welling up towards democracy and freedom of thought and expression within the Scandinavian countries is truly horrifying. Quite naively, as I said in my first post, very few people ever thought that this could ever happen in Norway, very few people have taken the extremist right wing very seriously, but this could just as well have been Sweden or Denmark.
People attacking their own nation, killing the daughters, sons, wifes, husbands and friends of their neighbours. Attacking and wishing to crush the democracy and the social system that has enabled their way of life and respected their rights to hold their political beliefs in spite of them being contradictory to all that is democratic is to me more horrifying than extremists from foreign countries (many of them with appalling standards of living) attacking nations that religious, political or other propaganda has told them is the enemy of their cause.
I believe this will live on as a scar on the Scandinavian model of society and democracy for decades to come. More people with these extreme right wing ideologies might become inclined to carry out similar attacks... Whatever path this takes, it will change the political climate in Norway and the rest of Scandinavia quite profoundly. Hopefully for the better, and for a stronger democracy that still respects the rights of these lunatics to hold their beleifs, but never again lets them go unanswered for as long as they have been.
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Roger Hicks
Veteran
Well, (highlight 1), I didn't put words in your mouth. I was just pointing out the inconsistency of your view.
But (highlight 2), this is very close to what you are saying. Substitute 'against the ________ way of life' (fill in nationality of your choice: English, American, German, Tibetan, Afghan for 'Scandinavian') and you must surely realize that we are all in this together. It's just that you appear not to have realized this before.
We are all conditioned by our upbringing and where we live. It's not a bad idea to look at (a) what other countries and cultures do wrong; (b) at what other countries and cultures do right, which is often much harder to accept; and (c) our own interpretations of 'wrong' and 'right'.
And as my wife said, "How do you make a distinction when you are looking down the barrel of a gun?"
Tashi delek,
R.
hexiplex
Well-known
You asked the question wether I thought it better had a Norwegian man killed a hundred people belonging to another nationality, my original post alluded to no such thing. Just that it is a horrible, despicable form of nationalism that makes a person attack their own nation in such an awful way, slaying 90 youths who have not even had the chance to start their lives. Not that any other form of extremism is less horrible, just that this particular event is more difficult for me, and I am sure, many others to come to terms with. Both because of the fact that this is the first time any nordic country sees internal terrorism in modern times and that this is also no doubt the largest death toll from any violent incident in the nordic countries since WWII.
Yes, I realize that we are all in this together, all extremism is equally dangerous and potentially catastrophic, les extrêmes se touchent as the french say. But once again, I think you are trying to read things into my text that I am not saying, perhaps it's my english. The thing about this, internal terrorism in Norway, a country with the highest standard of living in the world is harder for me to understand than for example religiously and territorially motivated terrorism coming across borders from Chechnya, Afghanistan, Pakistan, the Basque country or elsewhere. It is the same horrible extremism behind all of them, but understanding this particular madness is much harder, there are so many opportunities for right-wing extremists to express their ideologies and beliefs democratically in Norway, especially in the recent years with the entry of Framskrittpartiet (xenophobic "cultural conservatives") into the Norwegian parliament, and also Dansk Folkeparti in Denmark (another xenophobic "cultural conservative" party).
You have to understand, that as a Swede I have grown up with an incredibly strong belief in society and democracy. I believe that tolerance should be shown even to the extremely intolerant, no matter their creed or cause. To see this form of society, a society that most people within it view as a great, or at the very least a pretty good thing attacked by people raised within it, that is disconcerting. Almost to the point that it makes me disillusioned through my sleeplessness and sorrow over the ninety young people that were mercilessly gunned down on a political camp held on an idyllic island just six hours drive away from my own home city. These events are rocking the foundations of the image many, admittedly somewhat naive northerners have of their part of their world.
As for this
I am not quite sure what you mean by that. But I do know for a fact the perpetrators of these atrocities had thought long and hard about point (a) and that they do not appreciate a society that thinks long and hard about point (b), which is, or has been, in a not so distant past a hallmark of "Scandinavian democracy". I for one will continue to think long and hard about point (b), as I believe I have been doing for a considerable part of my life.
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Roger Hicks
Veteran
No, it was a rhetorical question. I do not think for an instant that you would prefer one to another. It was merely a way of illustrating that we all think we're doing something right, and (in distressingly many cases) that we are doing everything, or just about everything, better than everyone else -- which is patent nonsense.
I am not accusing you of this. Indeed, my response was written more in an attempt to engage others and to make them think, because clearly you are already thinking about it. The fact that we have failed to engage others may be taken as a failure on our part, yours and mine, because we are the only correspondents so far, or as a failure on their part, that others are unwilling to engage.
Cheers,
R.
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N
Nikon Bob
Guest
Not too shocking that an incident like this can happen with the right mix of political extremism and likely a healthy dose of religion thrown in for good measure. Always shocking when it happens in your home especially without warning and after a long quiet period. You just can't get too complacent and self satisfied about how good your society is.
Bob
Bob
majid
Fazal Majid
Most non-Scandinavians just don't realize how peaceful, orderly and egalitarian Scandinavian societies are. Scandinavian prime ministers would routinely take the subway to go to work, not behind a platoon of bodyguards, until the murders of Olof Palme and Anna Lindh a few years ago (or Pim Fortuyn for that matter, in many ways the Dutch resemble Scandinavians).
I grieve for the Norwegian people. In proportion to the size of their population, this is twice the death toll of 9/11. But I also know Scandinavian societies are immensely resilient, and the people of Nansen and Amundsen will not be cowed by the act of madness of one sociopath.
I grieve for the Norwegian people. In proportion to the size of their population, this is twice the death toll of 9/11. But I also know Scandinavian societies are immensely resilient, and the people of Nansen and Amundsen will not be cowed by the act of madness of one sociopath.
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hexiplex
Well-known
Nikon Bob said:
This is indeed shocking, if one has any insight in Norwegian and Scandinavian society at large. I agree with you that we cannot get complacent, and it appears that we have become just that. And I think, no I hope that no one is complacent any more, not now, not after yesterday. This thing will be likely to heavily influence, if not change many aspects of Norwegian society especially and Scandinavian society in general. We here in the north of the world are, as majid said, in many ways a very peaceful, and indeed, somewhat naive society. Internal terrorism and turmoil might not come as a shock to an American, or any Brit or Irishman with memories of the 70's, 80's and early 90's, but to a Scandinavian? This is the event of a century.
majid[/ said:
I too hope that something good will come of this, perhaps the cold, "culturally conservative" winds that have blown to Scandinavia as of late will subside as the people who have given them their voites realize the dangers of alienating any creed, race or political conviction. But unfortunately, I am not too sure that this is the act of a single sociopath, a second suspect has already been arrested and the investigation is still very much underway.
N
Nikon Bob
Guest
Yea, I have a small clue as to how orderly and tidy Scandinavian society can be. You are right, to an outsider with experience of home grown political violence/extremism it may not be so shocking. Canada has had the FLQ and it's bombings, kidnappings and murders in recent memory. The thing to worry about if and when an event like this changes a society is that you may become more like the people who perpetrated the event than you care to be. In other words do you fight intolerance with intolerance? Do you become as closed mind as they? There is a difference between saying that it is not shocking that something can happen and not being personally shocked by it. I was shocked by it.
Bob
Bob
Olsen
Well-known
Hexiplex, Roger, Majid, Nikon Bob,
First of all, I am very grateful for your concern and expression of sympathy for us Norwegians today. We are a people in shock and grief.
In all this I am touched by the sympathy shown by our fellow citizens of the world. I was at our dacha in Sweden when it happened. Thanks to Swedish national TV2 I could follow, directly, whatever happened back home in Norway. It was touching to see the concern and sympathy expressed through the Swedish TV coverage of the tragedy. - I am very grateful for that sympathy.
Norway is a small country. A population half of that of Ohio. 'Everybody is a friend or a brother', as a Norwegian poem from WWII says. My cousin worked in one of these crushed buildings in the governmental area that was the target of the bomb. His office was less than 50 meters from the bomb. Still he survived. Miraculously. He is a father of two toddlers. I know personally several - several, of the parents that lost their children at Utøya. Some had freak last phone conversations with theit children. Minutes before they were shot. Seconds..!
Of all things, the perpetrator, Anders Behring Breivik, lived for several years, a few blocks away. - Just to show you the freak atmosphere around me just now.
My wife and I live less than 1000 meters from the blast. One of the reasons for breaking our holiday and go home was to check that our house was ok. It was. Just as miraculously. Oslo reminds of the nazi Germany 'kristallnacht' (the night of broken glass). We are wading in glass splinters.
But the main reason was to be a support to friends who have had their children killed in the massacre. I have been continuously on the phone since we arrived home, late Saturday. One of my closest friends has his daughter hospitalised 'critically wounded' with multiple bullet wounds. That will cripple her for the rest of her life. - If she survives. The phone calls, are all in tears.
One of our greatest challenges we have is to explain this to small children. Without traumatizing them. - Just the same challenge we had at 11 of September 2001....
They ask us questions we can't answer.
How could this happen...?
First of all, I am very grateful for your concern and expression of sympathy for us Norwegians today. We are a people in shock and grief.
In all this I am touched by the sympathy shown by our fellow citizens of the world. I was at our dacha in Sweden when it happened. Thanks to Swedish national TV2 I could follow, directly, whatever happened back home in Norway. It was touching to see the concern and sympathy expressed through the Swedish TV coverage of the tragedy. - I am very grateful for that sympathy.
Norway is a small country. A population half of that of Ohio. 'Everybody is a friend or a brother', as a Norwegian poem from WWII says. My cousin worked in one of these crushed buildings in the governmental area that was the target of the bomb. His office was less than 50 meters from the bomb. Still he survived. Miraculously. He is a father of two toddlers. I know personally several - several, of the parents that lost their children at Utøya. Some had freak last phone conversations with theit children. Minutes before they were shot. Seconds..!
Of all things, the perpetrator, Anders Behring Breivik, lived for several years, a few blocks away. - Just to show you the freak atmosphere around me just now.
My wife and I live less than 1000 meters from the blast. One of the reasons for breaking our holiday and go home was to check that our house was ok. It was. Just as miraculously. Oslo reminds of the nazi Germany 'kristallnacht' (the night of broken glass). We are wading in glass splinters.
But the main reason was to be a support to friends who have had their children killed in the massacre. I have been continuously on the phone since we arrived home, late Saturday. One of my closest friends has his daughter hospitalised 'critically wounded' with multiple bullet wounds. That will cripple her for the rest of her life. - If she survives. The phone calls, are all in tears.
One of our greatest challenges we have is to explain this to small children. Without traumatizing them. - Just the same challenge we had at 11 of September 2001....
They ask us questions we can't answer.
How could this happen...?
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Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Olsen,
"There are bad people on the world. Fortunately they are not very many. They are not important enough to make you change your life, but they are important enough that you need to know they exist. Look out for them, but do not let them rule your lives."
Cheers,
R.
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Olsen
Well-known
My friend's daughter has also died. She had already been pronounced dead when I wrote my first post, but I was not aware of that when writing this.
N
Nikon Bob
Guest
Olsen
Extremely sorry to hear of your friend's daughter's death. My condolences to you and her family.
Bob
Extremely sorry to hear of your friend's daughter's death. My condolences to you and her family.
Bob
Olsen
Well-known
Thanks Bob and Roger,
A smile in all the tears: Our 13 years old Persian cat (The Old Persian Rug) disappeared late Friday afternoon - just after the explosion. Our dear neighbour who looks after him when we are away, was all in despair over the loss. - We had other worries, really. We said that, well, he had a good life. He was the most picky cat in Oslo. We wondered; when he no longer wants fillet mignon; what do we feed him? Lobsters?
Well, the Old Rug appeared today. Very hungry and slightly less picky than before... He purrs and seems happy to see us. In some strange way he represents 'civilization as we know it', right now.
A smile in all the tears: Our 13 years old Persian cat (The Old Persian Rug) disappeared late Friday afternoon - just after the explosion. Our dear neighbour who looks after him when we are away, was all in despair over the loss. - We had other worries, really. We said that, well, he had a good life. He was the most picky cat in Oslo. We wondered; when he no longer wants fillet mignon; what do we feed him? Lobsters?
Well, the Old Rug appeared today. Very hungry and slightly less picky than before... He purrs and seems happy to see us. In some strange way he represents 'civilization as we know it', right now.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Olsen,
Indeed. I was laughing and crying at the same time. The story of your friend's daughter had all the more impact, in that we learned today that an old friend had died while we were away and everyone assumed we knew. But he was 84, so it's not quite the same as a young woman.
I'll light some incense for her.And for our chum.
Cheers,
R.
hexiplex
Well-known
My deepest, and most sincere sympathies, Olsen, I cannot imagine how it feels to have friends and family affected by this tragedy when being six hours away from it and only knowing someone who knew someone there still feels heartbreaking.
The local branch of my own political youth association in Sweden, who has longstanding ties with AUF will be holding another vigil tonight, just as we did yesterday.
The local branch of my own political youth association in Sweden, who has longstanding ties with AUF will be holding another vigil tonight, just as we did yesterday.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
From the BBC news I just learned that people in small boats were rescuing young people from the sea, amid the gunfire, before the police arrived.
We all like to think we would do that, but until we have to, we cannot know.
I salute those who did, with all my heart.
Cheers,
R.
We all like to think we would do that, but until we have to, we cannot know.
I salute those who did, with all my heart.
Cheers,
R.
Olsen
Well-known
Thanks for all sympathy. I know that the support and sympathy expressed from peoples abroad touches Norwegians. It certainly touches me.
I drove my 91 years old father-in-law down to see the destroyed governmental buildings. He wanted to see them. We walked slowly in silence along the many police fences put up. The area is still a crime scene being investigated. Access is limited. He did not say much, but it was obvious that he was shocked.
I brought my M9 and the Noctilux since it is the longest M-lens I have. Due to the limited access it was difficult to get a fuller view of the destruction. Nor was I particularly inspired.
The huge building housing the prime minister's office and Department of Justice can be seen in the background. The bomb was placed on the other side if this building. Still windows has been blown out on this side. The light in some of the offices was due to crews of police investigators working.
The last picture shows the main fire station here in Oslo with all the windows covered with wooden sheets until new windows can be made. Along side it, the corner of Department of Labour still with the windows uncovered. A person was killed inside this building, so it is still being investigated.
I drove my 91 years old father-in-law down to see the destroyed governmental buildings. He wanted to see them. We walked slowly in silence along the many police fences put up. The area is still a crime scene being investigated. Access is limited. He did not say much, but it was obvious that he was shocked.
I brought my M9 and the Noctilux since it is the longest M-lens I have. Due to the limited access it was difficult to get a fuller view of the destruction. Nor was I particularly inspired.
The huge building housing the prime minister's office and Department of Justice can be seen in the background. The bomb was placed on the other side if this building. Still windows has been blown out on this side. The light in some of the offices was due to crews of police investigators working.
The last picture shows the main fire station here in Oslo with all the windows covered with wooden sheets until new windows can be made. Along side it, the corner of Department of Labour still with the windows uncovered. A person was killed inside this building, so it is still being investigated.
Attachments
Sparrow
Veteran
I am disappointed in whoever decided to move this to Off Topic ...