I am writing this knowing many will disagree with me, but that is fine. I think this subject is worthy of a look and discussion.
There are a number classic camera repainters who cater to the classic camera owner who desires their chrome camera to be black paint -- or any other paint color they please. Its not easy or quick to do a quality repaint on a classic camera, but is it VERY easy to do a bad job by making mistakes. The value of such a repainted camera is typically the same or only slightly more than than original camera, but the owner now has the pleasure of owning the camera in the color they desire. Such repaints are primarily utilitarian and don't add much to the camera's value unless the repainter is well known and popular.
IN A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT CATEGORY ARE RESTORATIONS OF RARE COLLECTIBLE CAMERAS!
Before the internet camera world became popular and viable, say before 1995, serious camera collectors, especially the serious Leica collectors, would not touch a restored or repainted collectible camera with a ten foot pole. Repainted original black Leica M's or screwmounts were mostly viewed as abominations, and the owners who paid to have the restoration done as having much less than average intelligence.
That many decades standard viewpoint has curiously changed with the internet. Many experienced camera collectors passed on, along with their valuable experience. They were largely replaced by collectors who had a lot of money, but did not know how to spend it wisely. Add to that equation sellers who naturally want to achieve the maximum sale.
In this brave new internet world, to some newbie collectors who don't know any better, repainted and or cosmetically restored collectible Leicas suddenly have achieved desirability. Repainted cameras that long were worth less than half of the same camera unrestored have oddly been selling for more the originals! This strange scenario has made the newbie Leica collector very happy with their new treasures, and the sellers hysterically happy on the way to the bank by being greatly overpaid.
If you are a Leica collector, its your money and your collection so you are welcome to spend it any way you like. But think long and hard before you ever consider paying as much for a repainted collectible Leica as the same camera unrestored -- much less paying a premium for it!
Stephen
There are a number classic camera repainters who cater to the classic camera owner who desires their chrome camera to be black paint -- or any other paint color they please. Its not easy or quick to do a quality repaint on a classic camera, but is it VERY easy to do a bad job by making mistakes. The value of such a repainted camera is typically the same or only slightly more than than original camera, but the owner now has the pleasure of owning the camera in the color they desire. Such repaints are primarily utilitarian and don't add much to the camera's value unless the repainter is well known and popular.
IN A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT CATEGORY ARE RESTORATIONS OF RARE COLLECTIBLE CAMERAS!
Before the internet camera world became popular and viable, say before 1995, serious camera collectors, especially the serious Leica collectors, would not touch a restored or repainted collectible camera with a ten foot pole. Repainted original black Leica M's or screwmounts were mostly viewed as abominations, and the owners who paid to have the restoration done as having much less than average intelligence.
That many decades standard viewpoint has curiously changed with the internet. Many experienced camera collectors passed on, along with their valuable experience. They were largely replaced by collectors who had a lot of money, but did not know how to spend it wisely. Add to that equation sellers who naturally want to achieve the maximum sale.
In this brave new internet world, to some newbie collectors who don't know any better, repainted and or cosmetically restored collectible Leicas suddenly have achieved desirability. Repainted cameras that long were worth less than half of the same camera unrestored have oddly been selling for more the originals! This strange scenario has made the newbie Leica collector very happy with their new treasures, and the sellers hysterically happy on the way to the bank by being greatly overpaid.
If you are a Leica collector, its your money and your collection so you are welcome to spend it any way you like. But think long and hard before you ever consider paying as much for a repainted collectible Leica as the same camera unrestored -- much less paying a premium for it!
Stephen
Pickett Wilson
Veteran
Cameras, collectible or not, or worth whatever the market will bear. If collectors are willing to pay lots of money for restored cameras, then lots of money seems to me to be what they are worth.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Nearly forty years ago, the late George Gordon Carr was making quite a lot of money from people who wanted their cameras 'restored' to 'as new' condition.
I think quite a lot of people had George (and others) 'restore' their cameras and that this may have led to a backlash.
Besides, keep any decent camera long enough and it becomes 'collectible'.
Cheers,
R.
I think quite a lot of people had George (and others) 'restore' their cameras and that this may have led to a backlash.
Besides, keep any decent camera long enough and it becomes 'collectible'.
Cheers,
R.
btgc
Veteran
For those who don't care about condition repainted (especially if not to highest quality level) can be chance to get working gear for significantly lower price, I guess.
I can just guess what Lennon would do to classic camera to make it matching his painted RR
I can just guess what Lennon would do to classic camera to make it matching his painted RR
Al Kaplan
Veteran
Sometimes I've regretted that I didn't keep a permanent marker in my guitar case and get a few of the great rock guitarists who played my Yamaha at after-the-concert parties, or on photo shoots, to autograph it, hell, even the ENTIRE BAND! But I didn't.
Supposedly David Douglas Duncan used to scratch his initials DDD on his Leica bodies. Today I can imagine somebody finding one of those heavily brassed MP bodies and paying good money to get the initials polished off in preperation for a new black paint "restoration".
Supposedly David Douglas Duncan used to scratch his initials DDD on his Leica bodies. Today I can imagine somebody finding one of those heavily brassed MP bodies and paying good money to get the initials polished off in preperation for a new black paint "restoration".
dexdog
Veteran
I can't stand those idiots who scratch their names on cameras, especially that Luftwaffe Eigentum guy. He ruined a lot of cameras
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degruyl
Just this guy, you know?
maddoc
... likes film again.
If (!!) I would be in the market for a collectible camera, I would try to find one in original condition. All the brass, dings, scratches, and peeling off vulcanite proof that it has been used, IMHO. Inge Morath`s former BP M2 (Erik van Straaten has it now and shown photos of the camera here) is such a camera I would look for.
MikeL
Go Fish
My M4 isn't much of a collectible, but I have closed-cell foam around the entire thing, with a slot cut out for the film winder and a hole for the shutter and lens. Taped together with Gorilla tape. Same for each lens, with individual rings of closed-cell foam around aperture and focus rings, so I can move them.
I like the black foam better for stealth, but the white stuff has a better smell. Tough decisions.
I like the black foam better for stealth, but the white stuff has a better smell. Tough decisions.
Platinum RF
Well-known
I have painted many Leica's they are all users, but I want a black lacquer M3, I do not want to pay crazy money on original one, is this add value to the user M3? may be not but I have black M3 I like. Camera collecting is dead after the digital age, how many people still collect Polaroids?
aizan
Veteran
do people nowadays really pay more for a repainted bp leica than an original bp leica? i've never seen that happen on ebay or anything. i have seen people pay more for a repainted chrome leica, but only if it was a high quality repaint. bad repaints lower the going rate.
Al Kaplan
Veteran
I don't find that shooting with a black camera is any more stealthy than shooting with a silver chrome body. If you're familiar with your camera, really at ease with it, you aren't fiddling around with the dials and focus, you can be just a couple of feet away no problem.
dee
Well-known
I agree that other than repair and CLA, a very rare camera '' should '' be unmolested ; whatever it's cosmetic condition , though some may think that it if it so far gone as to be unuseable - then it might be great to restore it to it's former glory .
A ' rat ' Contax II together with a silver paint / tan covering Contax II from parts / Kiev II shutter are both awaited .
To me , any other camera is fair game . I love modified Kievs and Contaxes - and am unconcerned about potential resale values .
A ' rat ' Contax II together with a silver paint / tan covering Contax II from parts / Kiev II shutter are both awaited .
To me , any other camera is fair game . I love modified Kievs and Contaxes - and am unconcerned about potential resale values .
Al Kaplan
Veteran
Some of us would find a pristine mint chrome M3, stick a lens on it, and go out and use it! I did that a few years ago, no regrets. Right now it's sitting here with my Visoflex II-S. When I bought the II-S about 35 years ago I had no idea what a rare bird it was. Anybody want to make me an offer? My big regret was not buying the preset diaphragm 180/2.8 Elmarit with it. By now that would be looking pretty beat to hell also. It would have actually seen some use.
http://thepriceofsilver.blogspot.com
http://thepriceofsilver.blogspot.com
I bought a brand new Nikon F2T for use in a Vacuum Chamber taking pictures of things being blown up. That was 30 years ago. It would be a challenge to restore. But it lead a useful, if short, life. Some items are meant to be destroyed in use. Most "professional grade cameras" are going to take a beating when used for their intended purpose. Makes the surviving cameras even more rare. After decades, maybe we feel that they are owed a little more respect.
In one of the old optics labs used for LASER research in the 60s, I found remnants of Nikon RF and Leica lenses that had been taken apart to get their optics for use on lab benches. A box of loose optics. Some custom coated for Near-IR. The most expensive "off the shelf" cameras and lenses are much cheaper than having them custom made. I have lenses that cost $40,000 to make that are now great paperweights.
I've had one camera "cosmetically restored". It's mine forever. A Shintaro repaint that also got rid of a BIG ugly dent across the top plate and faceplate of a Nikon SP. On others, "cosmetic restoration" consists of replacing dented body parts with original parts. Bought a box of Retina parts cheap, enough for several fixes. They were not rare or valuable, I could just make them look prettier and stick to original parts.
People think nothing of restoring a vintage car or aircraft. I see no reason why a historic camera should not be restored. Hopefully, restored to good working condition and not just nice cosmetics.
In one of the old optics labs used for LASER research in the 60s, I found remnants of Nikon RF and Leica lenses that had been taken apart to get their optics for use on lab benches. A box of loose optics. Some custom coated for Near-IR. The most expensive "off the shelf" cameras and lenses are much cheaper than having them custom made. I have lenses that cost $40,000 to make that are now great paperweights.
I've had one camera "cosmetically restored". It's mine forever. A Shintaro repaint that also got rid of a BIG ugly dent across the top plate and faceplate of a Nikon SP. On others, "cosmetic restoration" consists of replacing dented body parts with original parts. Bought a box of Retina parts cheap, enough for several fixes. They were not rare or valuable, I could just make them look prettier and stick to original parts.
People think nothing of restoring a vintage car or aircraft. I see no reason why a historic camera should not be restored. Hopefully, restored to good working condition and not just nice cosmetics.
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robklurfield
eclipse
brian, very well put.
I own six Shintaro repaints. I'm very happy with them. But I consider none of them cosmetic restorations as Shintaro makes a point of not exactly reproducing factory issued cameras so that serious collectors will not take his work as OEM factory work. Of course not all repainters have that policy.
I have no problem with restored vintage planes either, since they are unusually can't fly without restorations. But I don't see how restored planes are a good comparison to restored Leicas or Nikons.
However I just don't believe restored rare collectible Leicas or Nikons or Canons (usually painted bodies of one color or another) should command more than that same camera before it was unrestored. OK, everyone does not agree. Not a problem.
How good are the very best fake Leicas, those generally worth $10,000 or more? So good that even the best Leica experts can't recognize them! About 10 years ago a rare one of a kind presentation Leica sold at a famous auction house in England. It was represented to be the camera camera presented by Leica to a world famous person. It sold for a very handsome price. The only problem was that the real camera with 100% verifiable provenance resided in an American Leica collection. The forgers didn't even get all the details of the camera right, but as it was truly one of a kind, the experts had no way of knowing it. Scotland Yard contacted the buyer for them to get their money back. The buyer refused. The chances are that the camera had already been resold.
Stephen
dap
Established
I think all of this hoopla about repaint vs original is a bunch of poop. As far as the original paint being much better looking than a repaint...I don't buy it (at least as far as Leica is concerned). I have an M2 w/ a factory black paint replacement top - it is nothing special (My pentax KX has a MUCH better paint job). If done right (stripping chrome, choosing the proper paint) I can't see why the repaint couldn't end up being superior. I really hate when people preach about a camera being "only a tool" but in this case I will dip into that pool for a moment. Vintage black Leicas are not holy relics! They do not deserve respect (it is a hunk of metal and glass). If somebody wants to make a silver Leica into a black Leica (or, GASP, even better make a old beat up black leica look like a new black leica) - go nuts...paint away until your heart's content...neither I or the other 99.999999% of the population are going to judge you for it. I think what it really comes down to is that people who have spent big bucks on an original black paint camera resent the fact that joe six pack can also have one in black for a fraction of the cost.
35mmdelux
Veni, vidi, vici
About time, Stephen....As BackAlley would say; Name names.
thomasw_
Well-known
I agree. I fail to see why anyone should care whether one paints or doesn't paint a camera whether or not it is a collector item or not. It seems to me a misplaced sentimentality. Why misplaced? It is not mine to care about or worry about; let this rest with the owner. Keep a camera as you please, so will I. As such, there can be no further dispute, for comes down to a matter of taste and sentiment.