VC Bessa R2 not in production?

My thoughts on the R3.

No auto-winder. You can do 3 FPS with the trigger winder.

What would be neat add ins:

AE
Longer RF
1x Finder
Smaller Camera
TTL
TTL Flash
Faster X-Synch (maybe 1/250?)
Faster Shutter SPeed (maybe 1/8000)

But these are pipe dreams I think.
 
I was just getting the nerve up to buy a R2 and now the price increases by 30$. Perhaps Stephen Gandy will have a close out sale on the R2 to make way for the next coming attraction.

I have a Leica M6 and I love it. As always with me, it was the aniticipation of buying it along with the 50 f2 summicron that pushed me into the world of Leica. After the purchase, there is the eventual let down and reality sets in. I have two Leica lenses and two Voigtlander lenses. They all perform with superior results. The shutter noise on the Leica is actually quite noticeable. But I will gladly live with it.
 
Welcome aboard Brian. It is my desire to use a summicron which is driving my desire for an M mount body. So far I have been able to hold off on the Leica body, but someday I will make the jump. I figure with the $ I save by buying a Bessa I will be able to buy that 'cron.

As for the R2 price, you would think there would be a close out sale, but perhaps not as much of a $ brake as we think. Gandy's post indicates that the factory is sold out, so there will be no offical price break from Cosina. That leaves the distributors and dealers to set the price. If sales slow on the R2 and are robust on the new camera, then we may see a cut. It would be nice though if the R2 fell to around $325. The new camera will probably be introduced, I will guess, at @$675 and slowly settle to around $550. Cosina has always shown the tact of high initial pricing only to cut the price once the "I've gotta have it" crowd is satisfied and sales level off. Only a little over a month to wait and see what the facts are. Until then it will be fun guessing.
 
A quote from the email Stephen Gandy sent his CVUG.

"Mr. K giveth, Mr. K taketh away.

The R2 is now discontinued, the factory is sold out. The R2S, R2C, and
Bessaflex remain in production. The olive deluxe straps are discontinued with
the olive R2, while
the black deluxe straps remain in production. Personally I think this is a
shame as I prefer the olive straps with all my shooting cameras. I pleaded, but
the decision
was made.

The R2's replacment(s?) are expected to be announced by Photokina, or before.

Based on past Cosina Voigtlander camera developments, I anticipate added
features with the new Bessa(s), but also higher prices. Translation: the close
out bargain prices
on the L, R, and T represent bargains which may not be seen again for awhile one
stocks run out, while the limited R stocks in dealer's inventories may not last
long,
especially with the Olive R2. Since the olive straps were discontinued with the
olive R2, I take this to mean it's unlikely to have more olive Bessas in the
foreseeable
future.

What will the new camera(s) be like? time will tell. have fun guessing.

Stephen"
 
I suspect that we can find more clues in the new Epson R-D1. I don't like the prospects of much higher prices. I am not looking for a competitor to Leica, but an option in a different ball park. I see two Leica markets, new and used. I hope the new Bessa isn't trying to compete with either.
 
I grabbed one of the Japanese guys here at work, we trawled the Cosina web site. Nothing posted that confirms the rumor.

http://www.cosina.co.jp/

The price of new Bessa bodies and lenses dropped here in Oz a couple of months ago with the start up of an official agent operating out of Sydney.

As usual, this happened an annoyingly short time after I'd bought an R and lens.
 
Bessa-P

Bessa-P

Opps... I've drunk TOO muck coffee again.

Yep, I'm talking about a Bessa Panoramic.
Like I said two Bessa Ls stuck together, see...

bessa_p.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/goth_stu/bessa_p.jpg

Notice the two hot-shoe/accessory adapters on the top of the camera. One for the VF and one for an optional rangefinder or something else. The shutter would have to be longer, but I doubt that will be much of a problem has it is mechanical and doesn't use motors and/or magnets. Due to the length of film, it would have to be a double stroke film advance and shutter reset.

With the 24x64mm coverage, even the mighty Leica glass won't have the coverage... so two options are:
1. Redesign several of the popular CV lens to meet the coverage. In other words, triple the price (if that!) of your favorite CV lens.
(but think of a CV 15mm/4.5 on this format!...)

2. Use a Medium Format camera lens mount, like the old Mamiya 645 or Pentagon Six. Cheaper than redesigning and/or designing new optics to meet the coverage. On the downside there could be licensing issues and these lenses are for medium format SLRs and not as short like a 35mm RF lens, so you'll loose on compactness. Another lens mount to look at would be the Mamiya 6/7 lens mount, it's a rangefinder so the lens would be shallow'ish. You could use the XPan mount, but I'm sure the lawyers at Hasselblad will have something to say. Also the M645 or P6 lenses are CHEAP. XPan lenses... hmmm.

What it doesn't do...
Unlike the XPan/TX-1, you can't change formats mid roll.
No built in rangefinder, keep the cost down like the Bessa-L. Most budding panoramic photographers would start out shooting wide-angle, so scale focusing shouldn't be a problem. If you want to use a longer lens, use the second hot-shoe for auxiliary RF.

What it would do...
B exposures longer than 32 secsonds.
Non-swing lens, so none of that horizon bending and verticals going 'cartoon like'.
Offer a cheaper entry-level panoramic camera to the masses, like the Bessa-R and Bessa-L did to us RF fans.

< :bang: still thinking of other features and ways it would work :bang: >

Flame away...

Stu 🙂

PS. http://www.nikonusa.com/template.php?cat=1&grp=6&productNr=1667NCP
 
I think we can count on Mr Kobayashi doing something "different" and unique in the market. As to focus accuracy it could be approached from a different direction, say variable viewfinder magnification...

Seems like a natural, as longer lenses could benefit from greater magnification for easy framing, and that extra magnification gives more RF accuracy.

An R3 with this feature would probably be the first coincident-rangefinder with interchangeable lenses to have it.
 
I betcha it is just a more refined camera, with AE, longer baselength, but relatively mechanically simple. Addressing the concerns of the rangefinder consumers who compare the camera to a Leica to a degree, charging more for the product, but nothing fancy. Just my guess.
 
Doug, you probably know better than I, so help me out here. Aren't their limits to the degree of magnification that can be obtained with a buil-in viewfinder? The Bessa T gets its high magnification by use of an external viewfinder. I think that a longer baseline would be the only way to go to achieve greater focusing accuracy, but I may be wrong.

Frankly AE would be an easier feature for them to add than a longer baseline. Cosina has been using the same body for all of its rangefinders & SLRs. Longer baseline would mean a redesign of the body. AE could be achieved by using one of the existing systems although it probably means the introduction of significant electronics.
 
Hi Huck - I'm just speculating, with very little foundation! I just remember that they focus on niche products unique in the current market, and tend not to compete directly with Leica products. The word last year when a new RF camera was expected was that it was definitely not AE, but that was then, so who knows now? 🙂 Frankly, I'd like AE in a new Bessa.

I'm sure you're right that there's a limit to the variable magnification practical in a camera body. The Contax G2 needs a separate viewfinder for its 21mm, but I think it does handle 28-90mm, and that should be just as useful in a Bessa. Zoom finder technology is pretty good now, what with all the development effort on those zoom P&S cameras!

Rangefinder accuracy is a matter of both the RF baseline and the magnification. You can figure the effective baseline by multiplying the physical baseline length by the viewfinder magnification. Then clearly doubling the magnification doubles the effective baseline, increasing accuracy.

Leica partially addresses this by offering three different magnification options, but once you opt for a .58x or .72x or .85x camera, you have to live with that fixed choice. Or buy another body. :-D

Added accuracy is most useful for lenses with limited DOF wide open like the 75 Summilux and 90 Summicron, which coincidentally could also use higher viewfinder magnification for convenient framing.

I agree a longer physical baseline would require extensive changes in the Bessa body. But it earlier occurred to me it might be possible to avoid the need for a direct lightpath "tunnel" by using a coherent fiber-optic bundle to snake around the intervening components. Still, this may not be economical either.

I just speculate that a zoom viewfinder on the Bessa seems an attractive and useful idea, and the result might qualify as unique in the market.
 
Doug, I also like the idea of a zoom view finder. You make an excellent point about Cosina's focus on niche markets. I also wasn't thinking about Leica's .85 magnificatio. Excellent point as well! I believe that the Bessa is .68, so the jump to .85 would be perfect for their finder range of 35-90. Maybe they could add 2 models - another with a magnification of .58 so they could extend their finder range down to 28.
 
I may be crazy, but I think we are actually in for a whole new camera with this model. The Bessa's to date are built on an SLR frame and as you guys have discussed, used in a number of different cameras. There are no formal statements that have been made about the new cameras, except for the preparation that it will be a more expensive model. As to the statements 18 months ago telling us of a new camera to come which will be unique, I think that camera died before the production run. Or maybe it was sidetracked and turned into the R-D1. With that in mind, I am guessing that Cosina has made an investment and designed this camera from the ground up. As a now established manufacturer of rangefinder cameras with a now loyal customer base this expense is more easily justified than it would have been a couple years ago. Also, in my mind it is a good time for them to invest in the success that they have and build a camera that will be their champion in the years to come. Surely they can put in an FM3a type shutter and AE in to the R2 and call it the R3, but a big part of me, and I would think many would be disappointed in this. Instead of fitting a rangefinder devise into an SLR body as they did with the R, they can best attach the baselength "issue" by starting all over and resolving this issue not by changing the magnification of the finder but by building a better one. Perhaps they can offer sub models with different magnifications, offering wider framelines, or more accurate focusing of longer lenses. Whatever comes out I don't expect though that it will be a highly modern wiz machine though. At the core of RF photography is are two themes, quality and KISS. My guess based on his prior decisions is that Mr K knows this and will address both of these things, as he has done before, with his new camera.
 
The current chassis has sure proved versatile, hasn't it! I don't know if there are difficult compromizes within it in the RF role, but if so those issues could be improved with a new chassis.

That would be quite an investment, don't know if the benefits to the user would justify it. Other than a longer RF baseline, what imrovements could come from a new chassis?

KISS keeps prices down, and meets the "retro" niche. Not suggesting the existing one cannot be improved upon, but what would a successor be like?
 
I keep looking at Leica, and the M7 and MP pair, nothing really ground breaking with either camera. Taking a step closer quality wise while addressing some of the alleged weaknesses of the R2 may be enough. I mentioned earlier a fixed film advance trigger built into the baseplate. That is really a shot in the dark to name something unique. I wonder if the current trigger winder has been discontinued? Hmmm, that may be clue. If it isn't, one may assume it will fit the new camera.

I guess my luddite self will be easily satisfied, or perhaps dissappointed. No need for much more technology than a shoe box with a hole in the side for me.
 
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