dcsang
Canadian & Not A Dentist
For all of you guys who were so quick to b*tch at me for copying and pasting links from a Rumor site.. please note that in my post I noted the following:
Note the word APPARENTLY - it would be nice of people would be a bit more considerate rather than believe that I was making this story up and "got it all wrong". If you want to b*tch at a website go to Photo Rumors and b*tch at them.
Dave
Note the word APPARENTLY - it would be nice of people would be a bit more considerate rather than believe that I was making this story up and "got it all wrong". If you want to b*tch at a website go to Photo Rumors and b*tch at them.
Dave
Fotohuis
Well-known
I agree with you Dave. But some people would like to put it on a personal guillotine.
Further I am not a native English writer too so excuse me for some failures. (Do not blame the Germans). Oh sorry I am Dutch. :angel:
HHPhoto
Well-known
Dear Robert,
I have only criticised your behaviour in some cases, not you as a person.
That is a big difference.
I respect you as a person.
But I (and lots of others) am convinced that some of your action in forums is counterproductive to the film community.
The photographic medium film needs encouragement, not discouragement.
We need more pepople interested in using film.
I think we all can agree that the best photographic future for all photographers is a future where we have the most options and best variety.
That means that in addition to mainstream digital there will be also film, and film in best variety:
BW negative and positive film, color negative and positive film, instant film. 35mm, 120 and all sheet film formats. Maybe even 127, 110, 126, 626.
Then all photographers can be happy.
That should be our aim.
Digital is mainstream and will stay mainstream, it does not need support.
But film needs our all support to have a sustainable future.
And as a film distributor that should be your mission:
Encourage people to use film, to try different types of film so that they can learn and see what they like.
It is the absolutely basic economic knowledge that if you want to have customers, you have to encourage them and get you interested in the medium you offer.
But with your permanent negative comments like "Kodak will be dead, slide film will be dead, no R&D anymore etc." the result you get is completely the opposite!
No one wants to join a club which is permanently debating its near closure!
Look at the Marketing of Ilford or Film Ferrania for example: They are encouraging the photographers.
This is one of the main reasons of Ilford's success.
And that Film Ferrania had success with their Kickstarter.
Think about it. You can only win if you change your strategy and stop this discouraging negativity.
Cheers, Jan
Fotohuis
Well-known
Jan,
I am personally a big fan of slide film. I have a lot of them even in superslide in twin projectors with 250 watt bulbs. But the main stream is going digital in color so that left E-6 market is already very small and concerning the E-6 film sales in Europe it is slowly going to a dead end if nothing changes. The problem is that E-6 films can not be produced in small batches so the last E-6 manufacturer Fuji has to make decisions about their program. I knew the Fuji factory in Tiburg (NL) precisely and when this factory closed the Fuji film sales were already dramatically low. They made a mistake to take out the Neopan films because the market share in B&W for Fuji was already not that big. And now Fuji has only the Acros 100 left which is in technology in fact the best B&W iso 100 film ever made. But their marketing for this is crap. I fear the time when Fuji decides to stop Acros 100 because it is my main film together with pro 400H and Provia 100F. I had already a bad feeling about the discontinued Reala 100. Comparing colors of Reala 100 with e.g. Ektar 100, well Alaris/Kodak will have some things todo then.
You also have to be realistic so film in the future will be the world for smaller companies like Foma, Adox, Ilford, Ferrania and for multinationals like Kodak/Alaris, Fuji probably no place which means in fact not enough profit for the share holders. If you look at IP, they never made any profit so what would they expect for the longer future?
You can be very enthousiastic but somebody have to pay the bill.
Greetings,
Robert
I am personally a big fan of slide film. I have a lot of them even in superslide in twin projectors with 250 watt bulbs. But the main stream is going digital in color so that left E-6 market is already very small and concerning the E-6 film sales in Europe it is slowly going to a dead end if nothing changes. The problem is that E-6 films can not be produced in small batches so the last E-6 manufacturer Fuji has to make decisions about their program. I knew the Fuji factory in Tiburg (NL) precisely and when this factory closed the Fuji film sales were already dramatically low. They made a mistake to take out the Neopan films because the market share in B&W for Fuji was already not that big. And now Fuji has only the Acros 100 left which is in technology in fact the best B&W iso 100 film ever made. But their marketing for this is crap. I fear the time when Fuji decides to stop Acros 100 because it is my main film together with pro 400H and Provia 100F. I had already a bad feeling about the discontinued Reala 100. Comparing colors of Reala 100 with e.g. Ektar 100, well Alaris/Kodak will have some things todo then.
You also have to be realistic so film in the future will be the world for smaller companies like Foma, Adox, Ilford, Ferrania and for multinationals like Kodak/Alaris, Fuji probably no place which means in fact not enough profit for the share holders. If you look at IP, they never made any profit so what would they expect for the longer future?
You can be very enthousiastic but somebody have to pay the bill.
Greetings,
Robert
V-12
Well-known
Velvia 100F is thankfully now gone, rejoice! Now there is no confusion, just buy Velvia 100 like you should have done in the first place.
V
V
joeswe
Well-known
Dave,
it seems that you feel as being criticized unfairly for someone else's mistakes, but IMO it is entirely you who deserves the criticism here, not the website you linked to.
First, it was not the rumor site that was making the false statement, but you were making the mistake when mixing up the film names and giving the wrong film name in your thread title and post. The Rumor site got all the facts, including the name of the film, correct.
Second, you stated (as if it were a fact) that "there's some Fuji B&W paper being discontinued as well"; I can only assume that you draw this conclusion after somehow misinterpreting the results of running the Japanese press release run through Google translator. Neither the Japanese press release nor the Google translator version of it or the Rumor website mention the discontinuation of any b&w paper. Fact is that the Japanese press release (and the Google translation) mentions the discontinuation of some b&w photographic emulsion (= liquid to coat your own photo sensitive materials)
Third, while indeed you say "apparently" in your posting, the problem is that the original title of your thread read "Velvia 100 in 120 discontinued" as if you were stating facts --- no question marks, no "apparently"; it is exactly this type of headlines that makes the big impact, not the "apparently" or a question mark somewhere below in the small print
IMO, in the kind of environment we are now in -- where people react very sensitive or even with panic to any kind of film discontinuation news and negative rumors spread very quickly over the web -- it is simply reckless to start this kind of thread without carefully checking what one is writing.
John
Couldn't agree more. The issue wasn't with sharing the linked information, it was getting the type of film wrong in the title of the thread. Unless we all imagined that...
HHPhoto
Well-known
Robert,
you still have not got the picture:
Saying that is just repeating the marketing (or should I say "propaganda"
) of the digital imaging industry.
That is completely counterproductive for film.
There is no "law" that colour film will disappear (colour professional film even already has a slight increase).
Look at instant film:
In 2007 / 2008 all the "experts" has told us that instant film will be the first film type disappearing.
And now?
We have indeed a real revival of instant film with growth rates of 20-30% p.a.
Fuji have problems to produce enough and satisfy the demand because of this boom.
And by the way, the negative film base for instant film is coated on the same machines as normal film.
Therefore the film production at Fuji will be continued.
What you are saying is: Let's commit suicide because we have fear of death.
I think that is not a senseful strategy for film.
The situation can be changed! Look at instant film. First is to encourage people to use this unique medium.
Stop this stupid bashing and spreading misinformation about reversal film.
That is what you
- can do
- should do
- can do immediately
- cost you nothing.
Show responsibility and do your part.
Stop the bashing and the negativity.
Others do their part as well.
In Germany e.g. there are already running some projects with success. You could join in for the Netherlands and Flandern (and could profit by higher shop sales, too). You can contact me and I can give you the contact adresses for these projects.
We have even some new labs for E6 worldwide, and some start to do marketing as well.
Film Ferrania is developing a marketing strategy, too.
So there is definitely something positive going on currently.
New interest in the medium also because of the Film Ferrania project.
Let's use this momentum.
There is a real chance for a reversal film revival.
We can do it, together!
Look here or at apug or aphog: Recently more photographers ask about reversal film and start enjoying it.
That has to be supported!
Well, this factory did not close. Fuji is now producing silver-halide RA-4 photo paper there.
By the way: All the "experts" also say that RA-4 will be replaced by inkjet.
And what has happened instead? Now RA-4 sales are increasing again, and inkjet has not replaced it.
Well, Acros 100 is an excellent film, but I disagree that it is the best ISO 100/21° BW film ever made.
That is absolutely right. The marketing from Fujifilm concerning their normal films is really total crap.
But their marketing for Fuji Instax is very good and succesful.
They even make TV commercials in Asia.
What is now needed is that Fuji "gets a kick in the ass" from all of us to wake up and start marketing for normal film again.
I agree concerning Reala. Very nice film, much better compared to Ektar.
Fuji has a much better chance to keep film production alive compared to Kodak.
Because the film production line at Fuji is smaller and more flexible (that is the reason that they can still produce niche films like FP100c, Superia 1600, the slide films; Kodak had to stop all niche films).
And the Fuji film production has a very big support by the instant film boom.
They are profitable now. They benefit from the instant film boom. Because they are producing the negative film base for the Impossible films. And Impossible has just announced that they have surpassed the 1 million film pack production p.a..
They will now further increase to 3 mio. film packs each year.
Furthermore IC is producing papers and films for at least three other companies.
For example the Lomo Purple and Tourquiose films are made by them. So they are able to make extremely small production runs.
The Lomo purple batches are only 10,000 films per batch.
Ilford and Foma are not able to produce in such tiny batches.
Cheers, Jan
you still have not got the picture:
Saying that is just repeating the marketing (or should I say "propaganda"
) of the digital imaging industry.That is completely counterproductive for film.
There is no "law" that colour film will disappear (colour professional film even already has a slight increase).
Look at instant film:
In 2007 / 2008 all the "experts" has told us that instant film will be the first film type disappearing.
And now?
We have indeed a real revival of instant film with growth rates of 20-30% p.a.
Fuji have problems to produce enough and satisfy the demand because of this boom.
And by the way, the negative film base for instant film is coated on the same machines as normal film.
Therefore the film production at Fuji will be continued.
What you are saying is: Let's commit suicide because we have fear of death.
I think that is not a senseful strategy for film
.The situation can be changed! Look at instant film. First is to encourage people to use this unique medium.
Stop this stupid bashing and spreading misinformation about reversal film.
That is what you
- can do
- should do
- can do immediately
- cost you nothing.
Show responsibility and do your part.
Stop the bashing and the negativity.
Others do their part as well.
In Germany e.g. there are already running some projects with success. You could join in for the Netherlands and Flandern (and could profit by higher shop sales, too). You can contact me and I can give you the contact adresses for these projects.
We have even some new labs for E6 worldwide, and some start to do marketing as well.
Film Ferrania is developing a marketing strategy, too.
So there is definitely something positive going on currently.
New interest in the medium also because of the Film Ferrania project.
Let's use this momentum.
There is a real chance for a reversal film revival.
We can do it, together!
Look here or at apug or aphog: Recently more photographers ask about reversal film and start enjoying it.
That has to be supported!
Well, this factory did not close. Fuji is now producing silver-halide RA-4 photo paper there.
By the way: All the "experts" also say that RA-4 will be replaced by inkjet.
And what has happened instead? Now RA-4 sales are increasing again, and inkjet has not replaced it.
Well, Acros 100 is an excellent film, but I disagree that it is the best ISO 100/21° BW film ever made.
That is absolutely right. The marketing from Fujifilm concerning their normal films is really total crap.
But their marketing for Fuji Instax is very good and succesful.
They even make TV commercials in Asia.
What is now needed is that Fuji "gets a kick in the ass"
from all of us to wake up and start marketing for normal film again.I agree concerning Reala. Very nice film, much better compared to Ektar.
Fuji has a much better chance to keep film production alive compared to Kodak.
Because the film production line at Fuji is smaller and more flexible (that is the reason that they can still produce niche films like FP100c, Superia 1600, the slide films; Kodak had to stop all niche films).
And the Fuji film production has a very big support by the instant film boom.
They are profitable now. They benefit from the instant film boom. Because they are producing the negative film base for the Impossible films. And Impossible has just announced that they have surpassed the 1 million film pack production p.a..
They will now further increase to 3 mio. film packs each year.
Furthermore IC is producing papers and films for at least three other companies.
For example the Lomo Purple and Tourquiose films are made by them. So they are able to make extremely small production runs.
The Lomo purple batches are only 10,000 films per batch.
Ilford and Foma are not able to produce in such tiny batches.
Cheers, Jan
Fotohuis
Well-known
Well at most points we can even agree then.
Foma can produce 10,000 films per batch however the question is if film types like Purple and Tourquiose can be sold in a reasonable time schedule.
Under project by Foma in Hradec Kralové:
Fomapan NIR (I have got a sample).
Fomapan iso 25
Fomapan T800 (again), I tried the film between 1997 and 2001 when it was discontinued. They say they could make a better version now.
Foma can produce 10,000 films per batch however the question is if film types like Purple and Tourquiose can be sold in a reasonable time schedule.
Under project by Foma in Hradec Kralové:
Fomapan NIR (I have got a sample).
Fomapan iso 25
Fomapan T800 (again), I tried the film between 1997 and 2001 when it was discontinued. They say they could make a better version now.
mani
Well-known
This post above is one of the best I've ever read on this forum. It should be a sticky, and also a lesson to all the naysayers and negativity that people love to wallow in.
BRAVO!!
V-12
Well-known
But Ilford don't currently make colour film?
I don't know about Foma, but Ilford are entirely geared up to producing smaller batches of B&W film, it is their business model and a reason for their survival. How else can they take orders for obscure film sizes, how else can they make production runs of 'badged' film for sale in other branding? Anyway, when asked at a seminar with Ilford management the question, 'how much would a special run cost?' the answer was 'around £30,000', and it doesn't take much to work out given current retail prices for 35mm B&W a ballpark figure how many films you'd get 'at cost' for £30,000.
V
Fotohuis
Well-known
@V: Foma can produce 3 times less volume compared to Harman. Fotokemika/Efke was able to produce even a 6000 film amount which they did in the past for Rollei-Maco and Adox/Impex for special films like Rollei Retro 100 TONAL, ATO2,1, Ortho 25 and these type of special films. Now you can be happy OrWo Filmotec was able to produce new Ortho 25 film for them. However they can not do any coating step which must be done by Foma or Innoviscoat. A lot of 120 roll film assy from Rollei-maco are also done by Foma. Critical films like the Agfa Gevaert NIR film, Rollei IR-400(S) have a Harman assy.
So in this way every factory has its market share.
And about color: This is different technology. Fuji has been gone very far in their E-6 film development. Around 10 years ago they passed even Kodak on this technology. IMO Provia 400X and Provia 100F are their best E-6 films ever made.
So in this way every factory has its market share.
And about color: This is different technology. Fuji has been gone very far in their E-6 film development. Around 10 years ago they passed even Kodak on this technology. IMO Provia 400X and Provia 100F are their best E-6 films ever made.
HHPhoto
Well-known
Well at most points we can even agree then.
That is good, Robert
.Next step for you: Show action and real commitment.
I've been told by Foma on last Photokina fair in Cologne that their smallest production runs are about 5000m² (for an economic reasonable production). That are about 85,000 films per coating run.
They can. Purple is already on the third production run since its introduction.
For Tourquoise we will see how the demand develops in the next year(s).
NIR = Near InfraRed ?
We'll see.
Honestly I am a bit sceptical concerning Foma. Because
- I've had so often QC problems with their products
- for years they are refusing to do any marketing for film as a photographic medium.
They really really have to be more active in both regards if they want to stay in business.
Cheers, Jan
HHPhoto
Well-known
HHPhoto
Well-known
At Photokina at the Ilford and Foma booth I've been told the opposite:
Ilford: About 1200m² smallest coating run.
Foma: About 5000m² smallest coating run.
The coating for FilmoTec / Orwo is done by Harman technology / Ilford. That is official statement by the FilmoTec CEO, published in an interview with the German economic newspaper "Handelsblatt".
Right.
Well Fuji surpassed Kodak in E6 technology indeed already about 25 years ago with their Fuji Velvia (the first version).
That was their breakthrough getting the market leadership in E6.
Other milestones followed.
Velvia 50 and 100, Astia 100F / Sensia 100, Provia 100F and Provia 400X are the best E6 films ever made.
Therefore it is so important that we all
- continue to use Velvia 50, Velvia 100, Provia 100F, AgfaPhoto CT Precisa, or even better, increase our use
- start to use these films for those who have not joined in yet
- encourage other photographers to use this unique medium colour reversal film (and BW reversal film)
- and by that keeping this extremely important part of photography alive.
If we we all do that than demand for E6 films will increase, and there is than even the chance that films like Provia 400X will come back.
Fuji said that: If demand increase again, there is the possibility to re-introduce films.
Cheers, Jan
Gareth Rees
Established
Quote:
Originally Posted by mani
This post above is one of the best I've ever read on this forum. It should be a sticky, and also a lesson to all the naysayers and negativity that people love to wallow in.
I couldn't agree more.
I'll keep buying slide film
Originally Posted by mani
This post above is one of the best I've ever read on this forum. It should be a sticky, and also a lesson to all the naysayers and negativity that people love to wallow in.
BRAVO!!
Originally Posted by mani
This post above is one of the best I've ever read on this forum. It should be a sticky, and also a lesson to all the naysayers and negativity that people love to wallow in.
I couldn't agree more.
I'll keep buying slide film
Originally Posted by mani
This post above is one of the best I've ever read on this forum. It should be a sticky, and also a lesson to all the naysayers and negativity that people love to wallow in.
BRAVO!!