DerekF
Established
Hi,
I picked up a used Beseler 23C II on eBay earlier this week (due to arrive next week), hoping to set up a temporary darkroom in my apartment. I've determined that the best place for it is probably my bathroom (despite it being smallish), since it should be fairly easy to lightproof and I would have access to running water.
However, there's no ventilation fan in the bathroom. I figured I could get an outlet fan from the local hardware store and mount it in front of an open window when I need it, but this will probably NOT work well in the winter months, where it usually drops to -20/-30C temperatures at night (or even during the daylight hours).
So is there any advice anyone can offer to solve this problem? Since I am renting this apartment, I can't really make any "structural" changes to accommodate my needs.
Thanks!
I picked up a used Beseler 23C II on eBay earlier this week (due to arrive next week), hoping to set up a temporary darkroom in my apartment. I've determined that the best place for it is probably my bathroom (despite it being smallish), since it should be fairly easy to lightproof and I would have access to running water.
However, there's no ventilation fan in the bathroom. I figured I could get an outlet fan from the local hardware store and mount it in front of an open window when I need it, but this will probably NOT work well in the winter months, where it usually drops to -20/-30C temperatures at night (or even during the daylight hours).
So is there any advice anyone can offer to solve this problem? Since I am renting this apartment, I can't really make any "structural" changes to accommodate my needs.
Thanks!
We never worried about ventilation when I was in highschool and would regularly set up a darkroom in our bathroom. Just breath deeply and enjoy. 
Or, I think there are specific darkroom ventilation fans that are light tight. That may be worth investigating.
Or, I think there are specific darkroom ventilation fans that are light tight. That may be worth investigating.
R
Roman
Guest
Frankly, I never saw the need for ventilation in my darkroom (which is actually the kitchen). Regular paper developing chems are not that smelly ( you can get ascorbate based developers and stop bath, if you are very sensitive), and I have to open the door about every 30 to 45 minutes to bring the prins from the darkroom/kitchen to the drying room/living room, anyway, and can let in fresh air then; the only thing that is really smelly is selenium toner - but that does not require a darkroom, so you can do it in daylight, in a room where you can keep the windows open.
Roman
Roman
the_other_dirk
Member
I don't have a verntilation system either, I just leave the door open whenever possible. I once was worried about it too, but as roman points out, the usual darkroom chamicals aren't that smelly.
Just for selenium toner, I open the window wide open. I think it's toxic and the bottle clearly says you should use it in a well-ventilated area only.
And if you should ever use brown toner from Agfa (viradon), by all means, do it outside! It smells like rotten eggs.
Just for selenium toner, I open the window wide open. I think it's toxic and the bottle clearly says you should use it in a well-ventilated area only.
And if you should ever use brown toner from Agfa (viradon), by all means, do it outside! It smells like rotten eggs.
VinceC
Veteran
Opening the door periodically is usually the best thing to do introduce some fresh air. Usually a temporary darkroom in a bathroom or kitchen is kept clean enough that ventilation isn't a problem. Leaving chemicals sitting out and about in a fulltime darkroom is when they start to permate into everything.
Also, if you work in the evenings, it's not as critical to get airtight and light-tight -- you might keep the bathroom door ajar and use a curtain to keep out stray light.
Also, if you work in the evenings, it's not as critical to get airtight and light-tight -- you might keep the bathroom door ajar and use a curtain to keep out stray light.
DerekF
Established
Hmmm, interesting!
I haven't done any darkroom work since I took a photo course about 10 years ago so I've been relying mostly on the Web for my info (yes, I know how reliable that can be!). Everything I've read so far seems to indicate that ventilation is a must because the chemicals are bad for you, so are you all suggesting it can be safely done otherwise without any short- or long-term health effects?
I haven't done any darkroom work since I took a photo course about 10 years ago so I've been relying mostly on the Web for my info (yes, I know how reliable that can be!). Everything I've read so far seems to indicate that ventilation is a must because the chemicals are bad for you, so are you all suggesting it can be safely done otherwise without any short- or long-term health effects?
canonetc
canonetc
I think you should set up a ventilation system, and use a small heater to keep yourself warm in the winter months.
My previously unventilated darkroom caused me to get sick, with shortness of breath and my lungs feeling as if 1000 needles were piercing them all the time. A good friend said it was my chemicals (at the time I was printing every day for about six months). I went to the hardware store and bought a bathroom ceiling fan, then ran a flexible vent pipe from the fan output to the window (by cutting a circular hole in the black material over the window, and sealing it with gaffers tape.
My sickness went away quickly thereafter once I had good ventilation in the darkroom. If you can find a way to situate a sucking fan over your chemical trays, all the better.
Many professional darkrooms have air-sucking systems. There has to be a good reason for this, and not just "the smell".
Good luck and happy breathing,
Chris
canonetc
My previously unventilated darkroom caused me to get sick, with shortness of breath and my lungs feeling as if 1000 needles were piercing them all the time. A good friend said it was my chemicals (at the time I was printing every day for about six months). I went to the hardware store and bought a bathroom ceiling fan, then ran a flexible vent pipe from the fan output to the window (by cutting a circular hole in the black material over the window, and sealing it with gaffers tape.
My sickness went away quickly thereafter once I had good ventilation in the darkroom. If you can find a way to situate a sucking fan over your chemical trays, all the better.
Many professional darkrooms have air-sucking systems. There has to be a good reason for this, and not just "the smell".
Good luck and happy breathing,
Chris
canonetc
VinceC
Veteran
A whole lot depends on how often you're going to be printing and how long each session will last. Exposure to those "smelly" chemicals can, over time, probably lead to chronic health concerns, as mentioned above. On the other hand, if you're just printing a couple of evenings a week, there's a lot less concern. It's always prudent to be ventilated, but sometimes you also need to be practical. And that can just mean taking a breather in fresh air every few minutes. You're going to be turning on a light every few minutes to inspect prints under white light -- that's when you open the door.
kiev4a
Well-known
A lot depends on the chemicals. When I worked at a newspaper years ago we had a big tank of Rapid Fix we used for sheet film. The lid was off a lot of the time. Rapid Fix contains sulphuric acid. At one point I got so dizzy even the slightest movement of my head made me nauseous. The doctor said I had a middle ear infection. He said the fixer might have been responsible. Increased the darkroom venting and didn't have any more problems. My father almost died back in the '30s making etchings for newspapers in a room with no vent. Like me, it initially affected his middle ear.
VinceC
Veteran
>>A lot depends on the chemicals. When I worked at a newspaper years ago we had a big tank of Rapid Fix we used for sheet film. The lid was off a lot of the time. Rapid Fix contains sulphuric acid. <<
Both of these examples sound like fulltime, industrial-sized darkrooms, which is a different situation altogether.
You sure don't want to spent a lot of time inhaling acid fumes. On the other hand, an improperly installed ventilator could pull the acid fumes closer to your face instead of allowing them to settle low in the pan.
In DerekF's case, an exhaust fan in the bathroom window would be great if it's easy to set up. In the winter, he might look at getting a second electrically heated fan to help keep the place warm (to avoid cold chemistry). I'd personally be tempted to try it without ventilation and be prepard to ventilate if you start feeling uncomfortable.
Probably the more important thing is, What does DerekF plan to do with the old chemistry? Down the drain is terrible for the environment. Sometimes hospitals and medical clinics let amateurs drop off their old chemistry.
Both of these examples sound like fulltime, industrial-sized darkrooms, which is a different situation altogether.
You sure don't want to spent a lot of time inhaling acid fumes. On the other hand, an improperly installed ventilator could pull the acid fumes closer to your face instead of allowing them to settle low in the pan.
In DerekF's case, an exhaust fan in the bathroom window would be great if it's easy to set up. In the winter, he might look at getting a second electrically heated fan to help keep the place warm (to avoid cold chemistry). I'd personally be tempted to try it without ventilation and be prepard to ventilate if you start feeling uncomfortable.
Probably the more important thing is, What does DerekF plan to do with the old chemistry? Down the drain is terrible for the environment. Sometimes hospitals and medical clinics let amateurs drop off their old chemistry.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Rapid fix contains sulphuric acid? No formulae that I've seen. Or Glafkides, at least in his book.
And I'm totally opposed to those who say 'don't worry about it'. I've known far too many photographers with horrible, hacking 'smokers' coughs' without having smoked in their lives.
In all my darkrooms in the last 20 years, ventilation has been VERY important -- see the free 'Our Darkrooms' module in the Photo School at www.rogerandfrances.com.
Yes, install an extractor fan as a matter of some urgency. I'm not given to excessive concerns about trivial problems but I don't regard this one as trivial. Maybe for a year or two, not printing too often, if you're young -- but not otherwise.
Cheers,
Roger
And I'm totally opposed to those who say 'don't worry about it'. I've known far too many photographers with horrible, hacking 'smokers' coughs' without having smoked in their lives.
In all my darkrooms in the last 20 years, ventilation has been VERY important -- see the free 'Our Darkrooms' module in the Photo School at www.rogerandfrances.com.
Yes, install an extractor fan as a matter of some urgency. I'm not given to excessive concerns about trivial problems but I don't regard this one as trivial. Maybe for a year or two, not printing too often, if you're young -- but not otherwise.
Cheers,
Roger
jlw
Rangefinder camera pedant
When it comes to chemicals that MIGHT damage your health, I always figure better safe than sorry!
I also live in a rented apartment, and what I do for my utility closet/darkroom is three things:
-- I keep the chemicals covered as much as possible. I have one of those Nova slot processors, so it's easy to cover them up.
-- I have one of those air filter/ionizer fan things in the room. This doesn't really provide any ventilation, which is what you need, but it helps control odor.
-- I open the door whenever possible; after each print has been in the fix for one minute or so, you no longer really need the room dark, so I open up the door and keep it open until I'm ready to expose the next sheet of paper. And just outside the door, I keep a fan blowing and pointed into the room, so that whenever the door is open I get a good air change.
Also, if you're working in a bathroom, keep in mind that even if it doesn't have an exhaust fan, it probably has a vent (plumbing codes usually require this) and if that's the case, you might be able to add a fan to force air out of the vent.
I also live in a rented apartment, and what I do for my utility closet/darkroom is three things:
-- I keep the chemicals covered as much as possible. I have one of those Nova slot processors, so it's easy to cover them up.
-- I have one of those air filter/ionizer fan things in the room. This doesn't really provide any ventilation, which is what you need, but it helps control odor.
-- I open the door whenever possible; after each print has been in the fix for one minute or so, you no longer really need the room dark, so I open up the door and keep it open until I'm ready to expose the next sheet of paper. And just outside the door, I keep a fan blowing and pointed into the room, so that whenever the door is open I get a good air change.
Also, if you're working in a bathroom, keep in mind that even if it doesn't have an exhaust fan, it probably has a vent (plumbing codes usually require this) and if that's the case, you might be able to add a fan to force air out of the vent.
kiev4a
Well-known
OK, for the "experts" here (and there are a few who are at least self-proclaimed) Rapid Fix doesn't contain Sulphuric acid as such (although I was told it did and it sure as hell smells like it). But it does contain sodium and amonium bisulphite And Sulphur dioxide (a by product, I think, of Sodium Bisulpite and the waring on that chemical is
"Reducing agent. Contact with acids liberates toxic gas.
Environmental hazards Depletes oxygen content in water courses.
Human health hazards *Harmful if swallowed. Irritating to respiratory system and skin.*May cause suffocation if used in confined spaces."
I probably spelled something wrong as I do not claim to be an expert--just someone who was told by a doctor that breathing too many chemicals affected my inner ear.
"Reducing agent. Contact with acids liberates toxic gas.
Environmental hazards Depletes oxygen content in water courses.
Human health hazards *Harmful if swallowed. Irritating to respiratory system and skin.*May cause suffocation if used in confined spaces."
I probably spelled something wrong as I do not claim to be an expert--just someone who was told by a doctor that breathing too many chemicals affected my inner ear.
DerekF
Established
VinceC said:
After reading the comments so far, this is how I'm leaning, only that I'm going to try my hardest to figure out how to get a good vent going with the limitations I have. The good news is that I already have a portable heater so that part is already out of the way..
VinceC said:
Twice a year, the city sets up temporary hazardous materials drop-off centres to let residents drop off old batteries, paint cans, etc. I had thought about saving up all of my used chemicals until then, although this being my first darkroom, I have no idea how much I'll have to save up between drop-offs. I'm pretty sure there's at least one permanent drop-off centre that's open year-round.
Thanks for all the tips and insight so far!
Poptart
Screw Loose & Fancy-Free
You can get a self-contained filtration unit that recycles the air. It helps alot with dust too.
David Doler
Keeping Ilford in busines
Turn off all of the lights in the place, develop at night, leave the bathroom door open a bit and stick a fan in the door to at least bring in some new air. Use a changing bag to load the film reels.
XTOL or Ilfosol-S are pretty odor-free. If you want to, forget the acid stop bath and just use water (uh oh, im in for trouble now ). Ilford's fixer in the white square bottles are low odor as far as I'm concerned too.
Also, if you are using selenium, you don't have to do that in the dark. Set up some trays on the patio or somewhere and do it outdoors.
Don't risk your health. Be creative.
XTOL or Ilfosol-S are pretty odor-free. If you want to, forget the acid stop bath and just use water (uh oh, im in for trouble now
). Ilford's fixer in the white square bottles are low odor as far as I'm concerned too.Also, if you are using selenium, you don't have to do that in the dark. Set up some trays on the patio or somewhere and do it outdoors.
Don't risk your health. Be creative.
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DerekF
Established
David Doler said:XTOL or Ilfosol-S are pretty odor-free. If you want to, forget the acid stop bath and just use water (uh oh, im in for trouble now
Before I began to seriously consider setting up a darkroom at home, I originally purchased some chemicals at a local photo supplies store with the intent to develop film only, since I had done that about 10 years ago and still have the processing tanks, graduated cylinders and what-not. I purchased a packet of D-76 powder, a bottle of Rodinal (seems that lots of people here like that one), a bottle of Ilford Rapid Fixer and a bottle of Ilfostop. (I think I have to get some additional chemistry now that I'll also be doing paper developing.)
Reading the labels, almost all of them warn against contact with the eyes and swallowing (neither of which I intend to do!), but the rapid fixer also warns against the "formation and inhalation of vapours". I don't know if that's a "standard" warning or not, but it seems I'll have to take extra care just in case. If I have to set up the darkroom only at night so that I can keep the door slightly ajar while I work with a fan blowing into the room, I guess it's not such a bad compromise in the end. The days are way shorter during the cold winter months anyway.