Victory day

R

ruben

Guest
Today I want to extend my personal congratulations to all those who participated in this or other way in the fight against the Fascist regimes at WW2.
First perhapas should be recalled the FSU peoples who diyed by the millions at their Great Patriotic War.
Special mention too should be given to all those under occupyied Europe, who instead of seeking a peaceful life under Nazi sky, joined the partizan forces, and when catched alive were sent to the Nazi extermination camps.

Special mention too should be given to the German opposers of Fascism, both humble workers at military factories and aristocrats as well, like the Shultze Boysen family, who joined the Soviet spy all European network, known as the 'Red Orchestra' - who died heroically at the Gestapo torture chambers without opening their mouths.

Mention too should be granted to all those who without being organized at any level, offered generous help to partizans, to escaping jews and other actions, involving risking their lifes too.

Finnally I want to mention the Polish Jew Mark Edelman, one of the main leaders of the heroic Warsaw Jewish getho Insurrection, still alive but ignored by Israel autorities for not belonging to the Zionist credo.

For all that international effort, for all that heroism under the most adverse circumstamces - humble greetins.

Cheers,
Ruben

PS: Note should be taken about how at the darkest times some of men go to their lowest animal feelings and behaviours, while others to their best.
 
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When you realize what people went through in that war, particularly the Russians, it is absolutely astonishing. The fact that the Soviet Army resisted the Nazis is one of history's great triumphs. It should not be forgotten and the Soviets deserved credit for this industrial/human challenge.
Plus look at all those Kievs and Zorkis they produced, not to mention Ural motorcycles.
 
I have mixed feelings about wars. All I can agree on is that many people made many sacrifices, and we should never forget the past.

Clarence
 
And a special mention to Ernst Leitz and his daughter Else for the freedom train.

Incidentally, Justin, did you realise that the Kievs were a result of war reparations. The USSR was given the Zeiss Contax operation including the original tooling so when people say a Kiev is a prewar Contax they're not kidding (apologies if I'm giving egg-sucking lessons here).

Mark
 
I was a grand total of minus eight years old when the war in Europe ended. Both my parents immigrated to the US from separate parts of world because of the second world war. Frankly, I feel lucky that I wasn't around during that tulmultous epoch. The world would be a better place if all our politicians were limited to "one" five year term.
 
I know this is not about photography, but stories are being lost with the passing generations and I think this is pertinant to Ruben's post.

My late Uncle, Sgt. Major Archibald Macalister, Royal Engineers, participated in the liberation of Belsen. He can be glimpsed in some of the photographs taken at the time.

My family came from a largely Jewish neighbourhood in the East End of London. Although Belsen was not a racial extermination camp, this particular fight was "personal". My Grandfather had died in 1940, and I remember as a child my Uncle describing, how, as he entered the camp, an old man reached out towards him. At that moment, he recalled, one thought filled his mind - "that man is my Father". He lived by that insight for the rest of his life. I recall a man of spectacular goodness.

But. There is a sequel. Some days later my Uncle came across a large, abandoned country house. A group of British troops were piling up furniture, books paintings - and smashing them. They had seem the horror of the camp and were responding with an orgy of maniacal destruction. They were totally out of control, drunk on destruction and unhindered power. He was horrified and ashamed. Their delerium of hate differed only in degree from that of the Nazis - who also began by burning books.

So; this is Victory Day; but ultimately not a victory over any nation or people, nor even perhaps anything that could be dignified as an ideology. The evil that seized Germany from 1933-45 was a manifestation of a filth that lies in the abyss of the human spirit and has surfaced in every time and place. It is a battle they fought and won at unthinkable cost - and one we must fight too, starting in ourselves.

Ian
 
Jocko said:
So; this is Victory Day; but ultimately not a victory over any nation or people, nor even perhaps anything that could be dignified as an ideology. The evil that seized Germany from 1933-45 was a manifestation of a filth that lies in the abyss of the human spirit and has surfaced in every time and place. It is a battle they fought and won at unthinkable cost - and one we must fight too, starting in ourselves.

Ian
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Ian - amen to that. Nicely said.
 
Ian

Another amen to your post, very well said.

Nikon Bob
 
I don't think we can have a victory day until things like Rwanda and Darfur stop happening or we start doing more stop them instead of going to war to protect our own oil supply
 
Toby said:
I don't think we can have a victory day until things like Rwanda and Darfur stop happening or we start doing more stop them instead of going to war to protect our own oil supply
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I think it would be best to remember the past and to use that rememberance to make a difference in the present. Sadly, it doesn't always work, especially when trouble happens elsewhere.

I don't know what sort of solution might make things better in the Dark Continent and elsewhere.

Clarence
 
Ian,

another amen to that one!

Ruben,

you are right. Still somewhere in between the black and white lies the ever disturbing grey zone that was imposed upon Germans living in a dictatorship back in those days, like Veit Harnack and Harro Schulze-Boysen who all served Nazi organizations at some point of their career. My late Grandpa, a Weimar Republic Conservative, strongly opposed to the Nazis, never a Party Member, was sent off as a "Stabsarzt" (Forces Medic) to the West Front and served his country somewhere near Paris. After July 20th, 1944, he was arrested, being suspect supporter of the plot against Hitler, which was perfectly true. He kept his mouth shut as well and consequently was expelled from the army by order of loss of all his ranks and sent back to Germany to keep up medical service for the people - that was the thing that saved his life, I suppose. I still own letters by Nazi authorities stating that, after this, he still supported Polish POW with Fructose to keep them alive, and, with the local Protestant reverend, he went off to the woods by bicycle to supply some of the last hidden Jews with food. Nevertheless (or rather therefore), he has always been claiming, on a very humble basis, to be a German patriot.

It is so hard to tell how different people behaved in these situations, it seems even harder to tell how we would have behaved, and it is my country's burden that we had everything between Sophie Scholl and Heinrich Himmler.

Let us not forget these people, the former as an ideal, the latter as a warning.

By the way, it's great to be in this forum and speak freely about these issues, however painful they may be, and being part of this, a democratic RF community.

Thanks, Jorge!

Jesko
 
ruben said:
Today I want to extend my personal congratulations to all those who participated in this or other way in the fight against the Fascist regimes at WW2.
First perhapas should be recalled the FSU peoples who diyed by the millions at their Great Patriotic War.
Special mention too should be given to all those under occupyied Europe, who instead of seeking a peaceful life under Nazi sky, joined the partizan forces, and when catched alive were sent to the Nazi extermination camps.

Special mention too should be given to the German opposers of Fascism, both humble workers at military factories and aristocrats as well, like the Shultze Boysen family, who joined the Soviet spy all European network, known as the 'Red Orchestra' - who died heroically at the Gestapo torture chambers without opening their mouths.

Mention too should be granted to all those who without being organized at any level, offered generous help to partizans, to escaping jews and other actions, involving risking their lifes too.

Finnally I want to mention the Polish Jew Mark Edelman, one of the main leaders of the heroic Warsaw Jewish getho Insurrection, still alive but ignored by Israel autorities for not belonging to the Zionist credo.

For all that international effort, for all that heroism under the most adverse circumstamces - humble greetins.

Cheers,
Ruben

PS: Note should be taken about how at the darkest times some of men go to their lowest animal feelings and behaviours, while others to their best.
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Sorry for saying this but - i really hate days like this. TV shows, ceremonies ... Everybody talking how bad Germans are and how great allies are. I live in Serbia and we were occupied by Germany. Ask any old man and he will tell you that he haven\t a single problem with germans and when Russian and communist came we had rapings, killings ... So dont believe all that histoory tell you. It is written by winners. Do you really think Gemans were bad guys and others were nice? In war everybody is dirty - there is no good and bad. Its all about economy and profit. So people please think with your heads and dont let them fool you.
I hope you wont get mad for this. Its just my opinion.
bye bye
 
I agree that in the war there is no good and bad guys. But someone has started it. Bombing dresden for example, may have been an act of revenge, but the english havent started the war. Russians have brought death and rape with them, but so have the Germans. Whether it was SS or the "regular soldier" doesnt matter, millions of people were burned, shot, hanged or sent to conc.camp. My great grandparents, my great uncles and their families, were killed for being jewish. When my father returned to their hometown in Moldova, there was not one person left to tell the story of what happened.
 
nzeeman said:
Do you really think Gemans were bad guys and others were nice? In war everybody is dirty - there is no good and bad.
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True but who did start the war?
Wo did engage in the systematic extermination of the Jew?

In war everybody is dirty but it looks to me that someone was dirtier.

And Ruben, it is historically incorrect to define the Nazi regime as a Fascist regime, there are significant differencies, I do agree that they were both evil, my point is that they were different things.
 
nzeeman said:
...I live in Serbia and we were occupied by Germany. Ask any old man and he will tell you that he haven\t a single problem with germans and when Russian and communist came we had rapings, killings ...
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Could you please give the facts of such killings of Serbs and rapes of the Serbian women by soldiers of Red Army. I assume that Soviet soldiers killed civil Germans and raped their women (although it was not the common practice at all, as it's described by "modern historians" now), but to kill and rape Serbs?????!!! Serbs were the most brotherly non-USSR nation for Russians and your words are unbelievable!
But probably you ment the Russian cossacks, who served in German army (and Waffen-SS) and acted against Tito's partisans in Yugoslavia. I think they could do such things against Serbs, but in fact they were traitors and bastards by all means. During and after the war practically all of them who were captured by Red Army were immediately executed or imprisoned in GULAG (where 99% of them soon died anyway).
 
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lubitel said:
I agree that in the war there is no good and bad guys. But someone has started it. Bombing dresden for example, may have been an act of revenge, but the english havent started the war.
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I always thought myself that bombing Dresden was a war crime, the city had no military relevance, but an enormous artistic and historical importance.
It was a bit like bombing the pyramids if you are at war with Egypt.
(Thanks God the Israeli did not do that)
 
nzeeman said:
Ask any old man and he will tell you that he haven\t a single problem with germans and when Russian and communist came we had rapings, killings ... So dont believe all that histoory tell you. It is written by winners. Do you really think Gemans were bad guys and others were nice? In war everybody is dirty - there is no good and bad. Its all about economy and profit. So people please think with your heads and dont let them fool you.
I hope you wont get mad for this. Its just my opinion.
bye bye
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Sorry I don't agree iit's a matter of opinion: you state facts, you either have some supporting evidence or they are only hearsay, opinions plays no role in it.
 
Here is the link on differences between the Natzis and facists;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facist#Nazism_and_fascism

As stated we do owe a debt to all the people who fought WWII, no telling how far it may have spread unchecked.

As for war crimes,

Hmm... here in the U.S. we had one guy the raped and killed 48 women and may have raped and killed at least 8 more. That is just one guy. I you had a rifle squad of guys who all were doing this, especially if they were above the law, like soldiers usually are in an occupation, a great many women could be abused in a short time.

I have heard stories of U.S. soldiers in Vietnam who went bad and committed similar crimes. While the U.S. should be expected to hold them responsible (they have in some cases), it wasn't done under orders from the U.S. So I would say it isn't the U.S. that did it.

Not to discount what a horrible abuse of authority acts like these are.

I do feel that if we begin to blame a country for the crimes of but a few people, we will have many more wars than we do now.
 
Patriotism aside, nearly every war time army has skeletons in the closet. What to me places the Nazis into the worst case war crimes scenario is that there was a plan for ethnic cleansing that started at the top leadership.

Much of the military when I was in the service were conscripts and young. Young soldiers usually do not have the prudence of Supreme Court justices. When the troops become abusive or engage in vigilante behavior tragedies follow. I doubt that the top political leadership back in Washington and those inthe Pentagon encouraged such behavior.

On the subject of combat photographers, they are generally paid to portray a patriotic view of the war front. What you see in print or on the TV screen doesn't necessarily show the realities on the ground.
 
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