nzeeman
Well-known
Here are some facts- my mother father was in \German concetration camp and he survived war. my fathers father was german who wasnt involved in war but he was killed by communists immidiately after war. my whole family was tortured for not being communist, and our country like whole east europe was fucked up because of sssr and communism. Communism took more lives that wwii. SSSR is much bigger evil than Germany if we look Stalin's victims. And what about all wars US started, what about all collonies that suffered under Britain? Nobody\s innocent - wars come and go - and thats it.
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ruben
Guest
drmatthes said:
What a fine story to hear about, Jesko! I assume your Grandpa left a strong example on your family which I greet as well. There are those small candles at the hours of biggest darkness that keep hope for humanity.
Victory Day is not for me (nor for History) the victory of Russians or Americans over Germans, wether this or that government or people would like to exploit it this way, but the historical defeat of an extremely dangerous political regime. Your Grandpa, in my view was a true German patriot. At Jerusalem's Holocaust museum I have saw some documental films dealing with the rise of Fascism in Germany and I have to point to the overwhelming feeling of fear you feel looking at those tzunami waves of fanatism. Your Grandpa was a great and bold man. My heart is ceirtanly warmed by your story.
As for the issue of raping Soviet soldiers, I think the merit of the FSU peoples was being able to stand the Nazi offensive IN SPITE OF Stalin tyranical leadership. It is leadership what regulates the abuses of soldiers, either by silence or by wrinkle, wherever it be, Israel or USA, the Balkans or whatever.
The vyctims of Red Army soldiers abuse should be accounted, without doubt, as we should never accept the racists theories categorizing tribes by origin, and we should abstain from alike generalizations both directions. But it seems to me Red Army soldiers had their moments of heroism too. It was no accident the Red Army overcomed the German one, nor the fact that American Army lost their war against the Viet-Cong.
Cheers,
Ruben
PS: there is another rule by which Jesko's Grandpa should be measured. The partizan lives in the underground at great risk, but usualy meets the enemy at the hour of his choice. The partizan lives on alert all day, being his fellows part of his own eyes and ears. The partizan can show great heroism in the fight or under torture. But at the same time he belongs to an underground network backing him wherever he is.
The unorganized oppositionist is totally unprotected, but by his own morals. Therefore an unorganized oppositionist taking action can be more heroic than a partizan, according to circumstances.
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varjag
Guest
Nzeeman, with all due respect, it wasn't Soviet Army that bombed Belgrade. Soviet-Yugoslavian diplomacy had its ups and downs, and propaganda was in alignment with love-hate (mosly hate) relationships between Tito and Stalin.
Post-war hostility towards Germans on formerly occupied territories was common across Europe, and, dare I say, predictable. Fortunately not much of it left, mainly due to Germans' understanding of the lesson of history, and tremendous body of work on their side to improve relationships with other nations. Even in FSU states hatered towards Germans is extremely rare now, with level of tension among any two ex-Soviet nations easily surpassing it.
As of comparing the amount of victims of Stalinism and Nazism, it gets meaningless once you get into millions range. Still, Belarus (my state of origin) came from the war 25-32% of population short, depending on whose data you're inclined to believe; in absolute numbers that means at least 2 million people dead. Pre-war population figures were reached only in 1970s, to great extent due to migration from other parts of Soviet Union. I sincerely doubt that 70 years of communist reign there had similar impact.
Post-war hostility towards Germans on formerly occupied territories was common across Europe, and, dare I say, predictable. Fortunately not much of it left, mainly due to Germans' understanding of the lesson of history, and tremendous body of work on their side to improve relationships with other nations. Even in FSU states hatered towards Germans is extremely rare now, with level of tension among any two ex-Soviet nations easily surpassing it.
As of comparing the amount of victims of Stalinism and Nazism, it gets meaningless once you get into millions range. Still, Belarus (my state of origin) came from the war 25-32% of population short, depending on whose data you're inclined to believe; in absolute numbers that means at least 2 million people dead. Pre-war population figures were reached only in 1970s, to great extent due to migration from other parts of Soviet Union. I sincerely doubt that 70 years of communist reign there had similar impact.
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ruben
Guest
nzeeman said:
My friend, you know what? If your bottom line is that life stinks, I agree with you. In some sense, we all live submerged in a world full of excrement up to our ears. We have no control of it and we have not even control of the particular circumstances surrounding our life.
But this is not even the begining of wisdom nor the foreword. The issue over which we all have total control of, is what attitude we develope towards these adverse circumstances flowing from such world. Here we arrive to a matter of personal smell.
According to my nose, hereby are the basic alternatives:
Since life stinks and the world is full of excrement we can play it by the rules and become integral part of the excrement. The best players of this path happened to be the worst criminals. Ever-newbie players just affect their families.
The second possible path is to try to carve, with fatalist apathy, a kind of imaginary hole, since life is too short, and try to live a life full of yourself. You get nothing but you also don't give nothing, so you do not loose nothing, and live with plenty of nothing. At least you don't harm. Not good, nor bad. Just nothing.
The third atittude is the harder one. That of Jesko's Grandpa, to defy adverse circumstances in order not to loose you humanhood. In this path you live the world as you want it to be. You achieve true freedom as whatever the circumstances it is you who decides your own fate. And you leave behind you such strong an example, to be followed by those you care about, that your material death becomes a kind of begining for other travel companions.
This is my opinion.
Cheers,
Ruben
kbg32
neo-romanticist
nzeeman said:
From http://serbianlinks.freehosting.net/serbs.htm -
From 1941 to 1945, a systematic persecution and genocide was committed against the Serbian people in both Serbia proper, Croatia and Bosnia. About 1,000.000 Serbs perished. The most brutal were Croatian Fascists, Ustashi. " We shall kill one part of the Serbs, we shall transport another, and the rest will be forced to convert, " so said Dr. Mile Budak Minister of Education and Creeds in Craoatia on July 22,1941. In the concentration camp of Jasenovac, the most heinous crimes recorded in history were committed on more than 700,000 men women and children. ( When in 1984 the Serbian Patriarch German consecrated the memorial church in Jasenovac, he said "Forgive we must, forget we cannot.")It was customary for Ustashi to torture Serbian people, tie them in bundles and throw into pits. Examples of such crimes are numerous. In the village of Prebilovci, near Medjugorje in Hercegovina, 870 people were massacred. Nearly 50 years later their remains were exhumed and laid to rest in a newly built memorial church. Both the church and the remains were dynamited after the secession of Bosnia . in 1992.
In October 1941, the Nazi Germans executed over 7000 Serbs in the city of Kragujevac, including classes of high school students during the school session. In Vojvodina, Hungarian Fascists killed by drowning in ice covered rivers of the Danube and Tisa thousands of Serbian men, women and children. In 1941, General Draza Mihajlovic and his followers, Chetniks, organized the first armed resistance in the Nazi occupied Europe. As a Royalist, he opposed the Communist Partisan leader Josip Broz Tito. During the Nazi occupation of Yugoslavia, 1941-1945, General Draza Mihajlovic and his Chetnics saved over 500 downed allied pilots mainly from the United States.
The Nazi Germans weren't that bad?
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ruben
Guest
Comrades VARJAG and KBG32
Kindly pay attention to what nzeeman is really telling you:
"...my whole family was tortured for not being communist, and our country like whole east europe was fucked up because of sssr and communism. .."
This testimony is what matters, not agreement about comrade nzeeman historical expertize or objective evaluation. Don't you have any feeling to convey to comrade nzeeman about his family ?
Cheers,
Ruben
Kindly pay attention to what nzeeman is really telling you:
"...my whole family was tortured for not being communist, and our country like whole east europe was fucked up because of sssr and communism. .."
This testimony is what matters, not agreement about comrade nzeeman historical expertize or objective evaluation. Don't you have any feeling to convey to comrade nzeeman about his family ?
Cheers,
Ruben
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Evgeny S
KMZ rules!
nzeeman said:
These are only your emotions, not facts.
1. Who told to you that your grandpa was killed by communists? Was he senteced to death by the Yugoslavian court or just killed by someone on the street?
2. What exactly did you mean saying that your family was tortured? Your family was imprisoned? Or Yugoslavian communists enters your home every evening and beat all members of your family (including women and children) within an inch of their lifes claiming to join Yugoslavian Communits Party?
3. Please don't unite Yugoslavia and other Eastern Europe. Yugoslavia wasn't "fucked up" by USSR because Tito was very smart man and very good diplomat. USSR practically had no influence on the processed held in Yugoslavia.
4. "Communism took more lives that wwii." According to different sources the quantity of victims of the communism in USSR and Eastern Europe is approx. 20/21 millions of people. WWII took 56 millions of lifes.
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ruben
Guest
Evgeny S said:
Dear Comrade Evgeny S
Comrade nzeeman is not on trial here, as you agree for sure. Therefore if he is telling you that his family was tortured, better you show at least some cautious curiosity tone for your legitimate questions, instead of the harsher tone that only discredits your cause.
I feel truly sorry to have to point your attention to this.
Comradely,
Ruben
Evgeny S
KMZ rules!
ruben said:
Dear Comrade Ruben.
I'm terribly sorry, but where did you find the harsh tone in my post? My questions were more ironic, because nzeeman's sentence of "my family was tortured for not being communists" is ....h-m-m.... very improbable from my point of view. And I can contend that, because unlike of all westernes of this phorum I was living in USSR and 50% of my grandpas (and grandmas) have spent in GULAG camps at least 10 years of their life each, and other 50% of my grandpas were killed in WWII when they liberated Yugoslavia and other East European countries from nazis. But I have never heard that someone was tortured for not being communists! As the witness I can say that in reality it was VERY hard (it was the Great Honour) to join the Communist Party! Each person who wanted to join CP had to spent several years as candidate and when he/she proved his/her wish to become a communist he/she after a careful examination was allowed to become the member of the CP. Our dear friend nzeeman is too young to remember such things, so I can assume that he has just read some modern books, in which "modern" historians claims that communism was more evil then nazism.
2 All
My dear comrades! As I concerned this thread was aimed to congratulate everybody with the day of the defeating of the German Nazism.
This day has passed by so let's talk about photography now and leave the discusses about political history of the Earth apart of this phorum.
P.S. Take into attention that I was never the member of the Communist Party of the USSR and I don't like the modern "capitalistic" communists in Russia.
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kbg32
neo-romanticist
ruben said:
Ruben,
What nzeeman says is only part of the story and you of all people missed the point. I feel terribly sorry for all people who have suffered because of war. I am responding to the fact that nzeeman said the Nazi Germans weren't bad at all.
Cheers to you.
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ruben
Guest
Dear comrades Keith and Evgeny,
What both of you and me have in common and is relevant to this thread are two things. One is that we do not have any basic difference of opinion about our general evaluation of Nazism and WW2. Comrade Keith - you can rest in peace that I, from all people, have not missed the extermination role the Nazis played, nor got confused by comrade nzeeman bitter claims against the USSR, leading him to overlook the crimes you pointed so meticulously the Nazi Germans perpetrated against the Serbs.
The second one, rather subtle, is that we three all belong to military powerful nations with high leverage over other military weaker nations. If I have witnessed something during my few years of photojournalism, this leads me to not ignore or dismiss the claims of the weaker against your own powerful nation. If you belong to a military powerful nation, better pay attention and listen carefully, even between the lines, when a member of the weaker one raises his voice against your nation.
Yes comrade Keith, nzeeman is telling part of the story. But he is telling HIS part, which for him is the whole story. Being his story true is he to be blaimed as byassed ? Couldn't anyone of us have the same argument and feelings have we passed through what comrade nzeeman testifyies about his family ? Are we helping comrade nzeeman by implying he may be lying ? Are we helping our own evaluative capabilities by not listening nor inquiring nor showing any symphaty to what may not fit our beliefs ? Are our beliefs so weak that either they are plain White or, horror, plain Black ?
In this specific context, comes comrade Evgeny implying comrade nzeeman was brainwashed about the fate of his own family, following with another obscure argument of the like of are you speaking about family suffering? Mine suffered more! As if one contradicts the other.
Yes comrade Evgeny your tone is harsh, and highly evassive of the circumstance that your country has military occupyied Eastern Europe for almost four decades, through a system of puppet secret police regimes, very much alike the one Stalin erected in the USSR itself.
True, this occupation was very much due to the cold war unleashed against the Soviet Union. But if a Serb, or a Tatar, or a Chechenian, rises and tells you we have suffered from Your mighty country - better you listen with care, caution and curiosity and show perhaps true symphaty to his case, instead of telling him You have brought his people the light. Otherwise, by your heavy-handed, inquisitorial-style of rethorical question-and-dismissal, you are just comfirming the legitimacy of his claim.
Ruben
What both of you and me have in common and is relevant to this thread are two things. One is that we do not have any basic difference of opinion about our general evaluation of Nazism and WW2. Comrade Keith - you can rest in peace that I, from all people, have not missed the extermination role the Nazis played, nor got confused by comrade nzeeman bitter claims against the USSR, leading him to overlook the crimes you pointed so meticulously the Nazi Germans perpetrated against the Serbs.
The second one, rather subtle, is that we three all belong to military powerful nations with high leverage over other military weaker nations. If I have witnessed something during my few years of photojournalism, this leads me to not ignore or dismiss the claims of the weaker against your own powerful nation. If you belong to a military powerful nation, better pay attention and listen carefully, even between the lines, when a member of the weaker one raises his voice against your nation.
Yes comrade Keith, nzeeman is telling part of the story. But he is telling HIS part, which for him is the whole story. Being his story true is he to be blaimed as byassed ? Couldn't anyone of us have the same argument and feelings have we passed through what comrade nzeeman testifyies about his family ? Are we helping comrade nzeeman by implying he may be lying ? Are we helping our own evaluative capabilities by not listening nor inquiring nor showing any symphaty to what may not fit our beliefs ? Are our beliefs so weak that either they are plain White or, horror, plain Black ?
In this specific context, comes comrade Evgeny implying comrade nzeeman was brainwashed about the fate of his own family, following with another obscure argument of the like of are you speaking about family suffering? Mine suffered more! As if one contradicts the other.
Yes comrade Evgeny your tone is harsh, and highly evassive of the circumstance that your country has military occupyied Eastern Europe for almost four decades, through a system of puppet secret police regimes, very much alike the one Stalin erected in the USSR itself.
True, this occupation was very much due to the cold war unleashed against the Soviet Union. But if a Serb, or a Tatar, or a Chechenian, rises and tells you we have suffered from Your mighty country - better you listen with care, caution and curiosity and show perhaps true symphaty to his case, instead of telling him You have brought his people the light. Otherwise, by your heavy-handed, inquisitorial-style of rethorical question-and-dismissal, you are just comfirming the legitimacy of his claim.
Ruben
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traveller
Learning how to print
I'm perfectly happy that Germany lost the war, but looking into history I came to the conclusion that germans didn't invent hell, but they perfected it to an industrial level.
Just a rambling from a cynic who get's the creeps when hearing stories about knights on white horses or good and bad ideologies
Just a rambling from a cynic who get's the creeps when hearing stories about knights on white horses or good and bad ideologies
Evgeny S
KMZ rules!
Dear comrade Ruben,
I thought that you're keeping the neutral position in our discussion, but I was disappointed. Seems you was also brainwashed recently (I'll explain what I mean).
The statement that Eastern European countries (EEC) were military occupied by USSR was started to spead amond politics and historians after the USSR came apart. This statement was repeated and still is repeated each time when the discussion regards the relations between USSR and EEC. It's repeated so many times that noone on the West calls it in question. Famous Dr. Goebells (the PR-director of Nazist Germany) said once: "If you repeat the lie several times, it becomes the truth". Great idea, eh?
Let's look at the facts.
The conventional definition of the "military occupation" is given in the Hague Conventions of 1907 (Section III) .
Art. 42.
Territory is considered occupied when it is actually placed under the authority of the hostile army.
The occupation extends only to the territory where such authority has been established and can be exercised.
The fact is that every EEC has its own authorities. There were no Soviet representatives in their governments at all. The only participation of USSR was the military bases, situated on their territory. If you consider that this was the "occupation" you must agree, that Germany and Japan are still occupied by USA (because USA has its military bases on the territories of Germany and Japan), and soon Bulgaria, Romania and Poland will be occupied by USA too (their goverments agreed to place the US bases on their territory). Moreover, in the case of Yugoslavia, USSR did not have the military bases there at all.
Also if you will take a look on the list of military occupations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_occupations) you'll see that there is not a word about "Occupation of the EEC by USSR".
As to the "puppet secret police regimes" - this is also the "modern brainwashing statement". Firstly, all regimes in EEC were their own regimes. The people of that countries elected their regimes. The only claim of Soviet "big brother" is that this regime must be loyal to USSR. And they were loyal.
As an example, I offer to recall the events in Prague 1968. Everybody knows that this uprising was stiffled by Soviet Army. But this everybody doesn't know or prefers to forget the fact that together with Soviet tanks, there were also Polish, German and Hungarian tanks on the streets of Prague. And all these armies of the "USSR occupied" countries actively participated in the stiffling of the Czechs' rebellion.
Your sentence about Chechenians I won't comment at all. I just invite you to visit Chechnya and live among "friendly" Chechenians for a some time. If you're lucky man, you'll keep your head on your shoulders. If you're not so lucky, you'll be cut into pieces and sent to your motherland in several packages. BTW, I'm 50% Tatar
You know, I'm tired to prove that the views of people from West that USSR was the "real evil empire" are wrong in most cases. Unfortunately, such views become the religion of some kind and as a religion they couldn't be destroyed even by facts. :bang:
I thought that you're keeping the neutral position in our discussion, but I was disappointed. Seems you was also brainwashed recently (I'll explain what I mean).
The statement that Eastern European countries (EEC) were military occupied by USSR was started to spead amond politics and historians after the USSR came apart. This statement was repeated and still is repeated each time when the discussion regards the relations between USSR and EEC. It's repeated so many times that noone on the West calls it in question. Famous Dr. Goebells (the PR-director of Nazist Germany) said once: "If you repeat the lie several times, it becomes the truth". Great idea, eh?
Let's look at the facts.
The conventional definition of the "military occupation" is given in the Hague Conventions of 1907 (Section III) .
Art. 42.
Territory is considered occupied when it is actually placed under the authority of the hostile army.
The occupation extends only to the territory where such authority has been established and can be exercised.
The fact is that every EEC has its own authorities. There were no Soviet representatives in their governments at all. The only participation of USSR was the military bases, situated on their territory. If you consider that this was the "occupation" you must agree, that Germany and Japan are still occupied by USA (because USA has its military bases on the territories of Germany and Japan), and soon Bulgaria, Romania and Poland will be occupied by USA too (their goverments agreed to place the US bases on their territory). Moreover, in the case of Yugoslavia, USSR did not have the military bases there at all.
Also if you will take a look on the list of military occupations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_occupations) you'll see that there is not a word about "Occupation of the EEC by USSR".
As to the "puppet secret police regimes" - this is also the "modern brainwashing statement". Firstly, all regimes in EEC were their own regimes. The people of that countries elected their regimes. The only claim of Soviet "big brother" is that this regime must be loyal to USSR. And they were loyal.
As an example, I offer to recall the events in Prague 1968. Everybody knows that this uprising was stiffled by Soviet Army. But this everybody doesn't know or prefers to forget the fact that together with Soviet tanks, there were also Polish, German and Hungarian tanks on the streets of Prague. And all these armies of the "USSR occupied" countries actively participated in the stiffling of the Czechs' rebellion.
Your sentence about Chechenians I won't comment at all. I just invite you to visit Chechnya and live among "friendly" Chechenians for a some time. If you're lucky man, you'll keep your head on your shoulders. If you're not so lucky, you'll be cut into pieces and sent to your motherland in several packages. BTW, I'm 50% Tatar
You know, I'm tired to prove that the views of people from West that USSR was the "real evil empire" are wrong in most cases. Unfortunately, such views become the religion of some kind and as a religion they couldn't be destroyed even by facts. :bang:
ruben said:
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ruben
Guest
Evgeny S said:
The more I hear you, the more is it thrilling for me. Trully thrilling. No doubt your case is not that of Communism, but the one of The Great Russian Empire, formerly supporting Communism as the best horse to ride, later abandoning Communism on behalf of the same desire under different circumstances, Yeltzin style.
While the weakened bolsheviks at the first years of the revolution found themselves obliged to rely on people with your line of thought, they just put the rope around their throats. Poor innocents.
Evgeny S
KMZ rules!
ruben said:
Damn, as famous Chisholm law says: "If you explain so clearly that nobody can misunderstand, somebody will."
Let's take a look on the external source (freerepublic.com), saying what was the life in Chechnya during the period of its independence:
"...In the wake of their 1994 withdrawal from Chechnya, Russia simultaneously declared Chechnya still a part of Russia (and paid pensions and government salaries there) and left the Chechens to their own devices. But the Chechens could not govern themselves. It was as simple as that. The central government in the province controlled little beyond the capital Grozny. At least six major warlords held sway, and then quite loosely, over the rest of the province. Criminal activity rapidly increased. Between 1997 and 2000, some 1300 Russian civilians from southern Russia were kidnapped for ransom. When the money did not appear to be forthcoming, the victims were murdered. Hundreds of these captives were rescued as Russian troops again advanced into Chechnya in late 1999. But kidnapping wasn't the only racket. There was also auto theft, rustling, drug running and diverting oil from pipelines running through the province. This last scam was abetted by gangsters taking over local oil refineries and going into the fuel business. Add to this the usual gambling, extortion and prostitution rackets and you have a pretty grim place. For while a lot of the victims were fellow Chechens (who didn't belong to a particular gangs clan), most were in neighboring areas..."
and in Wikipedia:
"...From 1991 to 1994, as many as 300,000 people of non-Chechen ethnicity (mostly Russians) fled the republic, and thousands of non-Chechens were murdered or disappeared. The Chechen industry began failing after Russian engineers and workers were expelled from the Chechen Republic..."
I think that you don't belong to the Chechen gangster clan (do you?), so if you will visit Chechnya there are big chances that you can be murdered or disappeared in Chechnya. Am I right, eh?
As to my case I'm convinced that Russia was (and still is and will be in future) one of the greatest countries of the world. The last 15 years was the period of her weakness, but now Russia restores her position becoming one of the real sovereign states on the Earth. But I'm happy that these years showed who is the real friend and who was the disguised enemy.
By the way, another Murphy law says: "If you give information without citing the source, the information given is wrong."
Please, cite the source of your words about bolsheviks and the "rope around throat".
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ruben
Guest
Evgeny S[B said:
I have nothing else to ad, as you detail my argument in your own original words.
Yet, you are a member of this forum and respected by me as such. Not just a member, but perhaps the only one from your country, while many more are desired. I am sure on other grounds we will find ourselves in better harmony. Thank you for replying my posts.
Cheers,
Ruben
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nzeeman
Well-known
varjag said:
i really didnt mean to start some big discussion about wwii but i must tell you im very interester in that war so after reading some thing i saw that things are not so black and white in it. Allies bombed belgrade also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Belgrade_in_World_War_II
Also many people talk that it was a war against big evil nazi regime. I think that only thing we got was even more evil communist regime in east and capitalistic regime in west. and a bit more facts about victims in 20th century http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE1.HTM
You can easily see how many people were killed in sssr.
England and US and SSSR pretended to defend other people of DANGEROUS nazi regime and after that they give us many new wars (Korea, Vietnam, Somalia, bombing of Serbia, Iraq)as a reward.
Dont forget that German planes had english motors in them. Who sold that to German army. West capitalistic states would do anything for profit so tehy sell weapons to cuntries that will start war. They know that and they obviously like that. like US which was selling weapon to Iraq and now they occupied them.
Thats their game. Unfortunately economy rules world and start wars. Regimes are not important.
Wars are bad, and everyone who go in army and go in war is bad also.
Only way to stay good and clean is not to go to war and not to fight. If everyone start to act like that wars wouldnt exist. I know thats not easy but we should try.
Jocko
Off With The Pixies
I feel that Ruben has ended this post in the only possible way, but with real regret I must add something more.
Evgeny, please read this: http://unix.cc.wmich.edu/~cooneys/poems/ozy.shelley.html
I too believe that Russia was, is and will be a great nation. But history looks to the long view. Greatness has nothing to do with economic or military might, least of all with becoming "one of the real sovereign states on the Earth".
The battle fleets of Athens and Great Britain are gone, but Socrates and Shakespeare shape our very thoughts. Durer and Beethoven will "shock and awe" when Hitler means no more than Ashurbanipal of Ninevah. And as for Abraham, Jesus and Muhammad...
Greatness lies in the human spirit, not in things which turn to dust.
Good luck, Ian
Evgeny, please read this: http://unix.cc.wmich.edu/~cooneys/poems/ozy.shelley.html
I too believe that Russia was, is and will be a great nation. But history looks to the long view. Greatness has nothing to do with economic or military might, least of all with becoming "one of the real sovereign states on the Earth".
The battle fleets of Athens and Great Britain are gone, but Socrates and Shakespeare shape our very thoughts. Durer and Beethoven will "shock and awe" when Hitler means no more than Ashurbanipal of Ninevah. And as for Abraham, Jesus and Muhammad...
Greatness lies in the human spirit, not in things which turn to dust.
Good luck, Ian
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fgianni
Trainee Amateur
nzeeman said:
The Messerschmitt Bf 109 fighter mounted Jukers engines at the start of the war and Daimler Benz Engines leater on, same for the Bf 110 fighter/light bomber,
The Focke-Wulf 190 fighter mounted BMW engines
The The Junkers Ju 87 or Stuka (the famous dive bomber) mounted Jumkers engines exclusively
Dornier Do17 and Do217 light bombers mounted BMW and Daimler-Benz engines
The Henkel He 111 Bomber mounted Daimler-Benz and Junkers engines.
Finally the Messerscmitt Me 262 mouned BMW (Prototype) and later Junkers turbojets
And this should take care of the main German militay aircrafts during WW2.
All German engines.
Can you please give us a link to your sources of information?
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Evgeny S
KMZ rules!
Jocko said:
I'm sure that we'll must stop this discussion and return to the photography part of our life
I'm completely agree with your idea that "Greatless lies in the human spirit". And I hope that Russia will remain in human memory not as the one of the "evilist" regime in the history but as the motherland of Dostoevsky, Tolstoy, Pushkin, Lermontov, Aivazovsky, Repin, Shishkin, Chaikovsky, Rimsky-Korsakov, Nureev, Baryshnikov, Sikorsky, Rodchenko, Prokudin-Gorsky....