Vito II teardown

[KoNickon]

Hello,
I'm new in this forum. I'm from germany, so I apologize if my english isn't that good.
I've recently accuired a Vito II with a Prontor-S shutter and a f 3.5 Color Skopar lens. The camera seems to be in a good condition, the lens is clear. The aperture and shutter is working, altough the self-timer is stuck (the cocking lever for the self-timer does not move). The shutter speeds are a bit slow. I've serviced a Prontor-S shutter before on an old Agfa Silette; the service went well.
There is a nice video from Chris Sherlock on Youtube where he services a Prontor-S shutter. Detaching the geartrain for the shutter speeds is pretty easy, its really just 2 screws and you can take it out and flush it in naphta. I even diassembled the geatrain itself on my Agfa and cleaned all the gears and the shafts. It's a bit tideous to put it all back together, but all speeds are running just fine now. I will post the link to the video if I can find it again.

For now I am wondering on how to gain acces to the shutter without destroying the focus stops and I am looking for a bellow replacement, since the bellow is not made out of leather as far as I know. I own a Zeiss-Ikon Nettar where the outer surface of the bellow is made from leather and the bellows held up just fine after more than 60 years.

Best regards

I'm stymied with my Vito II at the moment. You're right, Chris's video shows that it's easy to remove the shutter speed geartrain -- two screws. My problem is that one of them I can't get at -- it's blocked by the part of the geartrain that contains the pin that rides along the speed cam. Don't know the name of that particular part, but it's supposed to move out of the way easily to get at the retaining screw below it. However, it's jammed in place and I can't move it to get access to the screw right below it. Maybe I need to remove the selftimer assembly first but I don't see that doing so will help.

 

[maxmoritz]

I had the smae problem with the shutter in my Silette. I have attached two pictures that I took when I was servicing the shutter. The lever which rides along the speed cam is circeled in red, the pivot point of this lever is circeled in green. The second picture shows the speed train from below with the bottom plate of the speed train removed but the gears still in place. In my case the lever was contaminated with Agfa's green grease, which hardens over time, so the lever got stuck at the pivot. I inserted am flat screwdriver at the position marked in yellow and twisted the screwdriver, so that the tip of the screwdriver is supported by the case of the shutter and the lever is pushed inwards. It took a bit of force indeed, but the lever and its pivot is pretty sturdy as you can see in the second picture. This red circeled lever has to move freely with the slightest force in order for the shutter to work correct. After I pushed the lever inwards I had access to the second screw securing the speed train. I took out the speed train and cleaned the excess grease from the lever with naphta. Because the pivot itself is hard to reach and the lever itself cannot be detached from the pot plate of the speed train, I applied a few drops of WD40 mixed with fine polishing compound to the pivot and moved the lever back and forth many times until the hardened grease was polished off. When the lever finally moved freely, I cleaned the pivot thoroughly with naphta to remove the mixture of WD40 and polishing compound.

 

[KoNickon]

I had the smae problem with the shutter in my Silette. I have attached two pictures that I took when I was servicing the shutter. The lever which rides along the speed cam is circeled in red, the pivot point of this lever is circeled in green. The second picture shows the speed train from below with the bottom plate of the speed train removed but the gears still in place. In my case the lever was contaminated with Agfa's green grease, which hardens over time, so the lever got stuck at the pivot. I inserted am flat screwdriver at the position marked in yellow and twisted the screwdriver, so that the tip of the screwdriver is supported by the case of the shutter and the lever is pushed inwards. It took a bit of force indeed, but the lever and its pivot is pretty sturdy as you can see in the second picture. This red circeled lever has to move freely with the slightest force in order for the shutter to work correct. After I pushed the lever inwards I had access to the second screw securing the speed train. I took out the speed train and cleaned the excess grease from the lever with naphta. Because the pivot itself is hard to reach and the lever itself cannot be detached from the pot plate of the speed train, I applied a few drops of WD40 mixed with fine polishing compound to the pivot and moved the lever back and forth many times until the hardened grease was polished off. When the lever finally moved freely, I cleaned the pivot thoroughly with naphta to remove the mixture of WD40 and polishing compound. View attachment 4890385View attachment 4890386

This is most helpful! Indeed, it's the lever pin circled in yellow that is stuck, and which needs to move inward in order to gain access to the screw below it in order to remove the speeds assembly. (The pin on top of the lever is what rides along the speed cam plate.) I had no idea the whole lever pivots on the pin circled in green. I will try your approach of twisting a screwdriver to get the lever to shift, but I think I'll apply penetrating oil to the pivot point (green circle) before doing so. Fingers crossed!

I think the shutter I'm dealing with is just dirty and/or rusted -- no bad grease.

Thanks so much for this! This is an example of why I find these shutters so confusing -- I can't tell what connects to what since I can only see one side when viewed from the front. And God knows what happens when you take things apart!

 

[KoNickon]

Brilliant -- I was able to push the lever inward (yellow circle)! This was thwarting my efforts, so thank you very much. I am working on trying to free up the pivot by alternately pushing the yellow lever inward and the tab at the other end (extreme righthand portion of the lever in the second picture) to see if they will start moving freely. I am able to get at that screw underneath the yellow circled end. But I want to see if I can get things moving freely without taking out the speed train -- I have a feeling I'll be unable to put it back in right! Maybe it's not that hard?

I will say there looks to be a fair amount of rust in the speed train, so I've put in a little more penetrating oil (Liquid Wrench) to let it do its thing. The lever at this point is a long way from moving freely -- it may indeed come to removing the speed train and fully cleaning it.

 

[maxmoritz]

Happy Tochter help and I'm glad it worked for you. Taking out the Speed train itself is no deal. Just loosen the two screws and you can lift it out. Perhaps there may be one spring to unhook, I don't remember the video of Chris Sherlock in detail. You don't even have to remove the selftimer to remove the speed train. Spraying the geartrain with penetrating oil while it is still installed in the shutter may be a bad idea because the penetrating oil may creep to the shutter blades and will gum them up. The shutter blades and the aperture blades have to bei free of oil or grease to operate properly as far as I know. Taking apart the shutter blades and the aperture to clean them is another deal, especially getting the aperture blades back together can be a nightmare. If I have time this weekend I can try and explain to you in more detail how Tochter get the Speed train out. Taking the speed train apart (removing the bottom plate and removing all the little Gears) is still not that hard. Be careful and take pictures from every step of disassembly so that you know which gear or screw went were.

 

[maxmoritz]

Have you detached the lens from the camera body?

 

[KoNickon]

Have you detached the lens from the camera body?

Yes -- the first thing I did. I've removed all the glass except the glass right in front of the shutter and aperture, which is just really stuck and as Chris's video mentions, there's not much surface for a friction tool to grasp. I would like to remove it since there's rust (!) on the shutter leaves -- the rear I've removed and cleaned the rust from (as well as from the rear element right behind the shutter/aperture).

I will need to review Chris's video again since I recall him fiddling with something at the end of the speed train to decouple it from the selftimer. He of course makes it look easy since he knows exactly what he's doing! The selftimer doesn't budge, no doubt because the speed train doesn't work.

I've been moving the lever back and forth in situ but I probably will have to remove the speed train to really get it moving properly.

One thing that's confusing me is that unless the shutter is cocked, I cannot move the lever inward (yellow circle) because the opposite end of the lever, which is turned upward, rests flush against the shutter cocking lever and can't move -- it's blocked by the shutter cocking lever.

 

[maxmoritz]

Okay, very good, you removed the lens from the body, so the body doesn't get contaminated with fuids you use on the shutter.

It's correct that the left end of the lever sits flush against the cocking lever as long as the shutter is not cocked. I will try to explain how the speed geartrain works, I hope my english is good enough.
If the lever circled in red works correct, the pin of this lever near the yellow mark should move all the way inwards if you cock the shutter because of a little spring inside of the speed train. You can see this little spring in my second picture from the bottom side of the speed train. If you now release the shutter, the cocking lever presses against the left side of the red circled lever and moves the yellow pin of this lever outwards. So the yellow pin of the speed train lever is pushed from inwards to outwards by the power of the cocking lever. The yellow pin is always pushed completely outwards. During this travel of the speed train lever, the gear train provides resistance because of its high gear ratio and inertia. If you set a faster speed on your speed cam, the yellow pin of the speed train lever does not travel all the way inwards anymore If you cock the shutter, because it hits the speed cam. So on a faster speed the yellow pin of the speed train lever does not have to move from all the way inwards to all the way outwards anymore, but instead it only has to travel from e.g. halfway inwards (where it was stopped by the speed cam) to all the way outwards by the power of the cocking lever. Therefore, the movement of the cocking lever is not slowed down as much as before and the shutter action is faster. If you remove the speed cam, the shutter automatically sets to 1s, because the speed train lever can travel all the way inwards and is not stopped by the speed cam.
So If you removed the speed cam, the neutral position of the yellow pin, if your shutter is cocked, is all the way inwards and the pin should travel all the way outwards if you release the shutter.

 

[KoNickon]

Okay, very good, you removed the lens from the body, so the body doesn't get contaminated with fuids you use on the shutter.

It's correct that the left end of the lever sits flush against the cocking lever as long as the shutter is not cocked. I will try to explain how the speed geartrain works, I hope my english is good enough.
If the lever circled in red works correct, the pin of this lever near the yellow mark should move all the way inwards if you cock the shutter because of a little spring inside of the speed train. You can see this little spring in my second picture from the bottom side of the speed train. If you now release the shutter, the cocking lever presses against the left side of the red circled lever and moves the yellow pin of this lever outwards. So the yellow pin of the speed train lever is pushed from inwards to outwards by the power of the cocking lever. The yellow pin is always pushed completely outwards. During this travel of the speed train lever, the gear train provides resistance because of its high gear ratio and inertia. If you set a faster speed on your speed cam, the yellow pin of the speed train lever does not travel all the way inwards anymore If you cock the shutter, because it hits the speed cam. So on a faster speed the yellow pin of the speed train lever does not have to move from all the way inwards to all the way outwards anymore, but instead it only has to travel from e.g. halfway inwards (where it was stopped by the speed cam) to all the way outwards by the power of the cocking lever. Therefore, the movement of the cocking lever is not slowed down as much as before and the shutter action is faster. If you remove the speed cam, the shutter automatically sets to 1s, because the speed train lever can travel all the way inwards and is not stopped by the speed cam.
So If you removed the speed cam, the neutral position of the yellow pin, if your shutter is cocked, is all the way inwards and the pin should travel all the way outwards if you release the shutter.

Ah, I see, when I cock the shutter the pin of the lever marked in yellow does not move inward on its own -- I have to push it. So that makes me think there is too much resistance in the speed train (due to rust or whatever) to allow that spring on the bottom of the speed train to move the pin inward. (I have not removed the speed train from the shutter assembly as yet.)

This is all most helpful! Thanks again!

 

[KoNickon]

The shutter is working! A case of being more lucky than good. I dove in -- removed the two screws holding the speed train in place (thanks to maxmoritz I was able to get at the previously covered screw -- see #22 and following). But nothing was moving as it should (#28). I went to remove the speed train but it wouldn't come out -- it was hung up on something. I was annoyed because I should have reviewed Chris Sherlock's video again -- nothing with shutters is as straightforward as it would seem to be. I cocked the shutter, thinking maybe something might be in the way. Lo and behold, when I did so, the pin marked in yellow in #22 moved down, just as described in #28. I got the assembly reseated and reinstalled the screws; tripped the shutter and it fired at 1 second, just as maxmoritz described. I reinstalled the speed cam and the speeds all work as they should.

I do not know what the problem was -- maybe something got shifted out of its proper position?

The selftimer still doesn't work, so this bears further review. But really, that is of pretty minor importance. As I said, it can be better to be lucky than good!

Thanks/vielen Dank to maxmoritz for his thorough and helpful explanation. I hope others benefit from this also.

Next up (unless I work on the selftimer) is reinstalling the shutter and getting the bellows re-seated, and patching the holes in it. That may be a futile effort.

 

[maxmoritz]

Sounds great, I'm happy that your sgutter is working now!
Yes, the bellows is a special kind of problem. I have an Agfa Solinette (as far as I know the only 35 mm folder from Agfa) and the bellows have many holes. I removed the lens and tried to patch up the holes with fabric paint. This did not work, the paint broke as soon as I folded the bellows. After this, I tried to cover up the holes and cracks with Plastidip, some kind elastic silicone which yu can apply with a paint brush or dip things into. This also did not work, because Plastidip did not stick to the outside of the bellows properly; you could peel it of like foil after it dried.
I now removed the bellows completely from the camera and I will try to craft my own bellows, because there don't seem to be replacement bellows available that you can buy for 35 mm folders.
For medium format Agfas, which do have the same problem with the bellows, there are some people who sell new replacement bellows (like Sandeha Lynch), but there seems to be nobody for 35mm folders. I have found some instructions for crafting medium format bellows online. I think I have to experiment a bit with what materials are suitable, but this will take some time and patience.

 

[Muggins]

I don't think any of us would think worse of you if you just left the self-timer as it was, they are the classic Thing Wot Goes Wrong in old cameras. How often do you use one anyway?

 

[Joao]

Hello.

Interesting and informative thread, considering that I am trying to ressuscitate an old battered Vito II considered to be a “parts” donor camera.

Specifically in relation to the front lens:

• There is no stop if I turn the lens below 1 meter focus distance, I can unscrew it completely (as mentioned above in post # 18 by KoNickon)
• The lens ring (see photo) was the victim of a very agressive behaviour. Question: can the front lens be disassembled ? If yes, how ?

Thank you

Joao

 

[KoNickon]

Hello.

Interesting and informative thread, considering that I am trying to ressuscitate an old battered Vito II considered to be a “parts” donor camera.

Specifically in relation to the front lens:

• There is no stop if I turn the lens below 1 meter focus distance, I can unscrew it completely (as mentioned above in post # 18 by KoNickon)
• The lens ring (see photo) was the victim of a very agressive behaviour. Question: can the front lens be disassembled ? If yes, how ?

Thank you

JoaoView attachment 4890544

Look at post #5 in this thread. That's what I should have done, but didn't. Not sure it's fatal though.

 

[Joao]

I'm grateful for directing me to that post.
When I read it I did not pay attention to the two rings laying below the camera. ..
If I understand it correctly the chrome ring ( left side in my photo below ) can be separated fron the scale ring / brass thread ( right side of the photo) using the tools shown in post #5
It won't be easy to find similar tools where I live but at least it shows the way . One way or another I think I can do it.
Thank you

Joao​

 

[KoNickon]

Yes, you are correct. I looked for the tools referred to in that post and I can't find them online -- all I can find are ones that are too large a diameter to fit. Good luck.