zeroeseight
Registered User
Basically had a reply from them saying they expect stock this month and that when they have full spec they will publish details on their site with stock availability.
rbsinto
Well-known
Pity that Cosina chose to spend so much time, money and effort on catering to the Leica crowd with beautiful and exotic choices of glass, while producing focal length and speed clones of only the run-of-the mill existing Nikkor rangefinder optics, and then wondering why their sales were so poor.
Prosaic
Well-known
Any numbers?
thomasw_
Well-known
Same here, summilux.
Platinum RF
Well-known
More Candy for your eye
More Candy for your eye
the size is roughly Summarit 50/1.5, relatively well made
More Candy for your eye
the size is roughly Summarit 50/1.5, relatively well made
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rbsinto
Well-known
Prosaic,
I have no figures, but Steven Gandy mentions on his site that the lenses for Nikon/ Contax mount rangefinders were discontinued because of disappointing sales. Based on the half-hearted effort Cosina put into the programme, the end result was nothing more than a self-fulfilling prophesy.
I have no figures, but Steven Gandy mentions on his site that the lenses for Nikon/ Contax mount rangefinders were discontinued because of disappointing sales. Based on the half-hearted effort Cosina put into the programme, the end result was nothing more than a self-fulfilling prophesy.
Silva Lining
CanoHasseLeica
Tom A
RFF Sponsor
I beg to differ on the SC and C mount line of lenses. The Nikon RF mount lenses are not "mundane" and non-exotic. It runs the full gamut from 21mm, through 25,28,35,50 and 85 as well as the possibility to mount the the 12 and 15 on the bodies using the F-mount lenses and the F-SC adapter.
It did allow a lot of us to aquire Nikon RF lenses at a reasonable cost and even focal lengths that was too much of a collectible to use.
Cosina did not expect a huge rush of customers - it was more of a service to the Rf Nikon (and Contax users). Volumes were small, most likely in the 1000 units or less - BUT the point is that they did it!
Nikon provided some of the "exotics" with the Millenium and the SP 2005 versions -but at a considerable cost as diid Zeiss with the SC Sonnar 50f1.5!
The R2s and R2C gave us metered Rf bodies too!!
We are looking at a small market and no manufacturer can make "small run" optics and expect to make huge profits for something like this! I am grateful that Mr Kobayashi made all of these lenses available to us that are addicted to what now is a "non-standard" lens mount.
We know thar they have the technology to make lenses like the 35f1.2 in SC mount or ultra high performane lenses like the 50f3.5 Heliar - but it is also a very small group willing to pay for the cost of these and you have to have the market!
At the moment I have 12mm,15mm,21mm,25mm,28mm,35mm f2.5 and 35f1,2, 50f3.5,50f1.5 and 50f2.5 as well as the 85f3.5 in SC mount.
Of the cuff, I cant really see what I miss. Oh, I also have the SC 50f1.5 C-Sonnar.
So. it would be interesting to have a 50f1.1 or a 85 Apo-Lanthar f2, but I cant see anyone paying the cost for these lenses - they would not be cheap!
What would be an exotic that you miss in this line-up? There is actually just a small group who use these lenses and the collectors are busy clutching their boxed 50f1.1's and 21f4's or Macro 50f3.5's to their chest and are really not that interested in "outside" manufactured lenses - OK, they migh go for a 50f1.1 Zunow or something like that!
It did allow a lot of us to aquire Nikon RF lenses at a reasonable cost and even focal lengths that was too much of a collectible to use.
Cosina did not expect a huge rush of customers - it was more of a service to the Rf Nikon (and Contax users). Volumes were small, most likely in the 1000 units or less - BUT the point is that they did it!
Nikon provided some of the "exotics" with the Millenium and the SP 2005 versions -but at a considerable cost as diid Zeiss with the SC Sonnar 50f1.5!
The R2s and R2C gave us metered Rf bodies too!!
We are looking at a small market and no manufacturer can make "small run" optics and expect to make huge profits for something like this! I am grateful that Mr Kobayashi made all of these lenses available to us that are addicted to what now is a "non-standard" lens mount.
We know thar they have the technology to make lenses like the 35f1.2 in SC mount or ultra high performane lenses like the 50f3.5 Heliar - but it is also a very small group willing to pay for the cost of these and you have to have the market!
At the moment I have 12mm,15mm,21mm,25mm,28mm,35mm f2.5 and 35f1,2, 50f3.5,50f1.5 and 50f2.5 as well as the 85f3.5 in SC mount.
Of the cuff, I cant really see what I miss. Oh, I also have the SC 50f1.5 C-Sonnar.
So. it would be interesting to have a 50f1.1 or a 85 Apo-Lanthar f2, but I cant see anyone paying the cost for these lenses - they would not be cheap!
What would be an exotic that you miss in this line-up? There is actually just a small group who use these lenses and the collectors are busy clutching their boxed 50f1.1's and 21f4's or Macro 50f3.5's to their chest and are really not that interested in "outside" manufactured lenses - OK, they migh go for a 50f1.1 Zunow or something like that!
Captain
Well-known
This is so true, I would never have been able to own a 21mm for my Nikon Rangefinders without the Voigtlander version being offered.
I wouldnt mind an exotic lens like the Heliar 50mm f3.5 modified to a Macro version though LOL
summilux
Well-known
yeah, peopel never appreciate things when they are still there.
let us hope cosina will release even more interesting things in the coming photokina 2008.
let us hope cosina will release even more interesting things in the coming photokina 2008.
rbsinto
Well-known
Tom,
Since you defend Cosina's position (which doesn't surprise me given that you possess one of the three S-mount 35/1.2 lenses made) I'll elaborate on what I miss from the line-up and why I think they did a poor job on the lenses they did produce for Nikon rangefinders.
I agree that the lenses cover a wide range of focal lengths (and I'll not split hairs by arguing about the absence of a 105, a 135 and longer lenses to match the entire Nikon s-mount line), however it is the speed of the lenses rather than their focal lengths that I find unimpressive.
The Leica 28's are produced in three speeds including two fast versions, while we have a relatively slow 3.5 version only. Why not produce at least an f2 version right from the start for Nikon? And similarly with the 35. I would have been happy with a 1.8. The Leica 35's are available in three fast variations, and even though a high-speed prototype is made for Nikon, we are never given the opportunity to purchase it. Yes, they would undoubtedly have been more expensive than the 35 that was produced, but so what? One gets what one pays for. I don't see Cosina worrying about charging Leica owners more for the more exotic optics, so why were they so concerned about those of us shooting with Nikons?
Also, an f2 version of the 85 should have been produced rather than a slower 3.5 lens.
To my mind, if you are going to take the time and trouble to produce a product, even one for a small market , don't do it half-heartedly. Either do it right, or not at all.
And if they felt there was some risk in producing expensive, high-speed optics that wouldn't have sold (presumably because of a lack of interest by Nikon users), then perhaps they could have qualified the process by doing a bit of market research and getting money up front if they found the number of potential buyers justified production.
Finally with respect to the ergonomics, the necessity to clamp on the plastic ring to keep from moving the paperture setting when adjusting focus (yes, I know, i should use the focusing wheel, but I find it easier to turn the ring with my fngers. It's 30 years of manual focus SLR use that does that) indicates a lack of planning when designing the lenses. To be fair the clamp-on ring isn't shown on any of the Nikon lens photos, so I suppose it's possible that it was issued on the Leica mount lenses as well, but I've never seen one on ebay auctions either, so I doubt it).
Anyway, it is what it is, and they made what they made and undoubtedly won't produce anything else in S mount, which is a pity. However, I've stated my opinion, and while it differs from yours, at least we can agree to disagree.
Since you defend Cosina's position (which doesn't surprise me given that you possess one of the three S-mount 35/1.2 lenses made) I'll elaborate on what I miss from the line-up and why I think they did a poor job on the lenses they did produce for Nikon rangefinders.
I agree that the lenses cover a wide range of focal lengths (and I'll not split hairs by arguing about the absence of a 105, a 135 and longer lenses to match the entire Nikon s-mount line), however it is the speed of the lenses rather than their focal lengths that I find unimpressive.
The Leica 28's are produced in three speeds including two fast versions, while we have a relatively slow 3.5 version only. Why not produce at least an f2 version right from the start for Nikon? And similarly with the 35. I would have been happy with a 1.8. The Leica 35's are available in three fast variations, and even though a high-speed prototype is made for Nikon, we are never given the opportunity to purchase it. Yes, they would undoubtedly have been more expensive than the 35 that was produced, but so what? One gets what one pays for. I don't see Cosina worrying about charging Leica owners more for the more exotic optics, so why were they so concerned about those of us shooting with Nikons?
Also, an f2 version of the 85 should have been produced rather than a slower 3.5 lens.
To my mind, if you are going to take the time and trouble to produce a product, even one for a small market , don't do it half-heartedly. Either do it right, or not at all.
And if they felt there was some risk in producing expensive, high-speed optics that wouldn't have sold (presumably because of a lack of interest by Nikon users), then perhaps they could have qualified the process by doing a bit of market research and getting money up front if they found the number of potential buyers justified production.
Finally with respect to the ergonomics, the necessity to clamp on the plastic ring to keep from moving the paperture setting when adjusting focus (yes, I know, i should use the focusing wheel, but I find it easier to turn the ring with my fngers. It's 30 years of manual focus SLR use that does that) indicates a lack of planning when designing the lenses. To be fair the clamp-on ring isn't shown on any of the Nikon lens photos, so I suppose it's possible that it was issued on the Leica mount lenses as well, but I've never seen one on ebay auctions either, so I doubt it).
Anyway, it is what it is, and they made what they made and undoubtedly won't produce anything else in S mount, which is a pity. However, I've stated my opinion, and while it differs from yours, at least we can agree to disagree.
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Captain
Well-known
You should keep in mind the optics are first and foremost were designed for their own short baselength Bessas and then adapted to Nikon S mount. For this reason they dont make an 85/90mm f2 in any mount so your argument doesn't quite wash. To even make one would clash with their Zeiss association.
Also you must remember the lenses were only made in small single batches in the very early days of the Voigtlander line. It was always proclaimed as a one time deal, grab them while you can. You yourself point out that sales werent that great, in fact some are still available new long after they have been discontinued. Why would they therefore consider making further lenses if not many takers are going to embrace them. By my understanding the batches that were made were a favour to Nikon Rangerfinder users and are the only full range of multicoated lenses ever sold in Nikon S mount and it was done so with the likelihood of there being little to no profit involved.
So they designed the lenses to suit the focusing wheel of the cameras themselves but not for you personally because your used to the way you focus your SLR's and that denotes a lack of planning on their part? LOL Sorry but alot of users prefer to use the focusing wheel, I know I do. It suggest more an individual's unfamiliarity with the use of Nikon Rangefinders than any lack of planning.
Personally I dont understand your dissatisfaction, only that you cannot get a certain lens in the mount you want, we all have that problem at some stage. I personally think it was a great offer clearly made by a rangefinder enthusiast
They believe they did it right but if it was left up to you with a "not at all" attitude I wouldn't have certain focal lengths that I was unable to get at all prior to Cosina Voigtlander coming along. Nikon came out with only 2 new lenses that are hard to buy separately and were the same designs as their older lenses so are they even more guilty of a half hearted attempt? (And its their own cameras no less!) Everything is a compromise, In Nikon S mount your lucky to get anything at all. Its that old expression beggars cant be choosers.
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rbsinto
Well-known
Captain,
Not to belabour the issue, but I think you've missed my point. I don't expect that after what turned out ot be disappointing sales Cosina will risk/bother bringing out another batch of lenses that are optically more interesting. Instead, I don't understand why they didn't do it in the first place, which might have resulted in better sales.
As for your comment about the lenses being designed for use with the focusing wheel; if that was truly the case, then why did they find it necessary to have a clip on focusing ring? I assume that it became necessary when it was determined that not everyone used the wheel, and those who didin't found the apertures they set slipping away when they tried to focus.
And yes, I am dissatisfied that I can't get the lenses in the speeds I want. Especially when the manufacterer is seemingly doing everything they can to satisfy one group of camera owners when they easily could have done the same for another group and simply chose not to.
Not to belabour the issue, but I think you've missed my point. I don't expect that after what turned out ot be disappointing sales Cosina will risk/bother bringing out another batch of lenses that are optically more interesting. Instead, I don't understand why they didn't do it in the first place, which might have resulted in better sales.
As for your comment about the lenses being designed for use with the focusing wheel; if that was truly the case, then why did they find it necessary to have a clip on focusing ring? I assume that it became necessary when it was determined that not everyone used the wheel, and those who didin't found the apertures they set slipping away when they tried to focus.
And yes, I am dissatisfied that I can't get the lenses in the speeds I want. Especially when the manufacterer is seemingly doing everything they can to satisfy one group of camera owners when they easily could have done the same for another group and simply chose not to.
Tom A
RFF Sponsor
The Nikon/Contax mount series was strictly an added service to non-M mount users! In japan there are a substantial market for Nikkor RF glass as well as Contax glass. Mr Kobayashi is not only a manufacturer of optical glass,lenses,cameras etc, but an avid photographer and also a collector!
The SC series was a reasonable cost spin-off from the LTM/M line of lenses. He did not have to recalculate completely new optics, but could use existing lens "cells" fo them. The only added cost component was the mounts. This made it possible to make reasonably priced, modern perforance lenses for the Nikon/Contax.
A completly new line of lenses, high speed or "exotic" focal length, dedicated for SC or C mount would be very costly and not even break even and however much he is a user/collector - he is also a businessman and has to look at profit and loss, just like any business.
The sales of some of the SC lenses was not as good as he would have liked, but overall they did well (at least no losses on them). A specialty lens line like this takes time to sell out and though some are available new, most of those are from dealers holding stock, not the factory inventory (which means that when they are gone -thats it!).
As for ergonomics! I vastly prefer the 25f4 VC lens to the original 25f4 when it comes to setting apertures or focus and also the 28f3.5 VC to the Nikkor 28f3.5! The clip on ring was an added bonus - IF you wanted to use it. I dont use them as I have had no problem with the "regular" controls.
These lenses were made for the amataur user, the afficinado, the enthusiast (i.e the regular cast of slightly off center nut cases that I am proud to be associated with!).
I think if you are desperate for more exotic lenses in Nikon SC mount - there are specialists who probably can adapt any thing to anything (for a fee!). In the meantime I am happy with my kit and if there are more of these lenses coming in the future - i would consider it a bonus.
The SC series was a reasonable cost spin-off from the LTM/M line of lenses. He did not have to recalculate completely new optics, but could use existing lens "cells" fo them. The only added cost component was the mounts. This made it possible to make reasonably priced, modern perforance lenses for the Nikon/Contax.
A completly new line of lenses, high speed or "exotic" focal length, dedicated for SC or C mount would be very costly and not even break even and however much he is a user/collector - he is also a businessman and has to look at profit and loss, just like any business.
The sales of some of the SC lenses was not as good as he would have liked, but overall they did well (at least no losses on them). A specialty lens line like this takes time to sell out and though some are available new, most of those are from dealers holding stock, not the factory inventory (which means that when they are gone -thats it!).
As for ergonomics! I vastly prefer the 25f4 VC lens to the original 25f4 when it comes to setting apertures or focus and also the 28f3.5 VC to the Nikkor 28f3.5! The clip on ring was an added bonus - IF you wanted to use it. I dont use them as I have had no problem with the "regular" controls.
These lenses were made for the amataur user, the afficinado, the enthusiast (i.e the regular cast of slightly off center nut cases that I am proud to be associated with!).
I think if you are desperate for more exotic lenses in Nikon SC mount - there are specialists who probably can adapt any thing to anything (for a fee!). In the meantime I am happy with my kit and if there are more of these lenses coming in the future - i would consider it a bonus.