msbarnes
Well-known
I want a good user rigid (e.g. non-folder) fixed-lens rangefinder.
I love my Retina's but they're a little slow to use so I'm thinking about a IIIs, Automaitc III, or maybe a voigltander rangefinder. I'm familiar with the Retina viewfinders and features but I'm also considering voigtlander.
a few questions:
1) What is the difference between the vito and vitomatic series?
2) Are the voigtlander rangefinders as crisp as the Kodak line? I find the Retina IIc/IIIc viewfinders dim/squinty but easy to focus because the patch is good. I have the impression that the voigtlander viewfinders are larger (1:1 on some!), more clear, but in general the patches are fuzzy and faded. I place high value on a good patch.
3) Does voigtlander use the EVS system?
I love my Retina's but they're a little slow to use so I'm thinking about a IIIs, Automaitc III, or maybe a voigltander rangefinder. I'm familiar with the Retina viewfinders and features but I'm also considering voigtlander.
a few questions:
1) What is the difference between the vito and vitomatic series?
2) Are the voigtlander rangefinders as crisp as the Kodak line? I find the Retina IIc/IIIc viewfinders dim/squinty but easy to focus because the patch is good. I have the impression that the voigtlander viewfinders are larger (1:1 on some!), more clear, but in general the patches are fuzzy and faded. I place high value on a good patch.
3) Does voigtlander use the EVS system?
Muggins
Junk magnet
Yes, Voigtlander used the EVS system (if you are talking coupled shutter speeds and aperture according to EV - which is what I understand EVS to be)
Not all Vitos had rangefinders - I had a Vito C for a while which was lovely to use, but strictly scale focus. I believe that the later Vito Bs had a bigger viewfinder - the early ones were very squinty. The Vito C and the Vitomatic IIa (the one I have) share a HUGE viewfinder - you can use it through thick glasses without ever bumping the glass on the viewfinder. The latter camera has an RF - I found the patch OK, but have seen better! If you aren't sure I'd see if you can find someone with one - I find the Vitomatic a bit over-complicated to use, in all honesty.
Any help?
Adrian
Not all Vitos had rangefinders - I had a Vito C for a while which was lovely to use, but strictly scale focus. I believe that the later Vito Bs had a bigger viewfinder - the early ones were very squinty. The Vito C and the Vitomatic IIa (the one I have) share a HUGE viewfinder - you can use it through thick glasses without ever bumping the glass on the viewfinder. The latter camera has an RF - I found the patch OK, but have seen better! If you aren't sure I'd see if you can find someone with one - I find the Vitomatic a bit over-complicated to use, in all honesty.
Any help?
Adrian
batterytypehah!
Lord of the Dings
Like most things Voigtländer, it's complicated... Here's what I've figured out over the years, since picking up my father's old Vito CL, almost 30 years ago now.
No, Vitomatic does not signify RF; I think the -matic part only refers to the coupled light meter. The Vitomatic I does not have an RF. On the other hand, there are some Vitos with RF.
In fact, I have both a Vitomatic II and a Vito BR and they're identical, except the Vitomatic adds that meter. Both are based on the Vito B body that was around for awhile before, with a smaller viewfinder, but the same tiny body with that little extra door to simplify film loading.
You can spot the ones with 1:1 viewfinders from across a room, the tall "hat" (chrome top) is a giveaway. I don't care much for that appearance-wise, but the VF is a joy to use.
RF patch: Very faded on my Vitomatic, much better on the Vito BR. You just have to take your chances there, I'm afraid.
EV system -- yes and no. It's there, but it doesn't interfere, unlike that rotten EV lock that Retinas have. I couldn't disagree more with Adrian there, in fact. Maybe he uses an external meter? With the built-in, it works beautifully. You match the two needles with the aperture ring (stepless), then you can select from all the equivalent f-stop/shutter speed combinations with the speed ring. Quick and easy, even with the top readout that mine has. The later ones even show the needles in the VF.
Most have a 50/2.8 Color-Skopar lens, but occasionally they can be found with the 50/2 Ultron. Usually fetches a good deal more, though.
OK, here comes the part where I lower my voice and tell you, just entre nous, that you can sometimes pick these up for a song because they need film to work. If you see one offered with "stuck shutter" or the like, go for it. It's almost guaranteed to be fine, once you insert film. This continued through the B bodies; the C will fire with or without film.
I'd stay away from the C series and later. IMO that's when Voigtländer was already past their peak in build quality.
No, Vitomatic does not signify RF; I think the -matic part only refers to the coupled light meter. The Vitomatic I does not have an RF. On the other hand, there are some Vitos with RF.
In fact, I have both a Vitomatic II and a Vito BR and they're identical, except the Vitomatic adds that meter. Both are based on the Vito B body that was around for awhile before, with a smaller viewfinder, but the same tiny body with that little extra door to simplify film loading.
You can spot the ones with 1:1 viewfinders from across a room, the tall "hat" (chrome top) is a giveaway. I don't care much for that appearance-wise, but the VF is a joy to use.
RF patch: Very faded on my Vitomatic, much better on the Vito BR. You just have to take your chances there, I'm afraid.
EV system -- yes and no. It's there, but it doesn't interfere, unlike that rotten EV lock that Retinas have. I couldn't disagree more with Adrian there, in fact. Maybe he uses an external meter? With the built-in, it works beautifully. You match the two needles with the aperture ring (stepless), then you can select from all the equivalent f-stop/shutter speed combinations with the speed ring. Quick and easy, even with the top readout that mine has. The later ones even show the needles in the VF.
Most have a 50/2.8 Color-Skopar lens, but occasionally they can be found with the 50/2 Ultron. Usually fetches a good deal more, though.
OK, here comes the part where I lower my voice and tell you, just entre nous, that you can sometimes pick these up for a song because they need film to work. If you see one offered with "stuck shutter" or the like, go for it. It's almost guaranteed to be fine, once you insert film. This continued through the B bodies; the C will fire with or without film.
I'd stay away from the C series and later. IMO that's when Voigtländer was already past their peak in build quality.
Jack Conrad
Well-known
Build could hardly be finer with these Vito's. Nice to work on.
I just renovated both a Vitomatic IIa and a Vito B the past couple days. Even though the Vitomatic has all the desirable features, I
kinda prefer the simplicity and ergonomics of the B.
I just renovated both a Vitomatic IIa and a Vito B the past couple days. Even though the Vitomatic has all the desirable features, I
kinda prefer the simplicity and ergonomics of the B.
PMCC
Late adopter.
Don't overlook a "bomb-doors" Vitessa N or L with the f2.0 Ultron and Synchro-Compur shutter. Stunning camera and lens, and noticeably undervalued. I found it a snap to focus and operate. As I recall, you can search RFF for a couple of threads with pix that will not fail to impress. Also look here: http://cameraquest.com/voitvitl.htm
pinkarmy
Well-known
1) YES, it is a great camera! (i have a user early version with no meter);
BUT:
2) the price is rising rapidly, even those with a lesser lens Color Skopar,
3) it is a folder, not rigid lens
4) the viewfinder could be a pain, i can confirm this myself.
if you want great viewfinder, that should be Vitomatic II and above. i have a vitomatic IIIB the 1:1 is heavenly.
BTW, i also have a Kodak retina IIIc, the viewfinder is not an issue for me.
PMCC
Late adopter.
Transcendental folder
Transcendental folder
It is true to say it's technically a folder, but it's the most rigid one I know and thus I felt worth mentioning given OP's interest in Voigtlander rangefinder models. I think it's the most elegant and underrated of the Voigtlanders. Its Ultron lens is superb, its engineering and design are original and amazing, and it's just incredibly snazzy to operate. I have no problems using the VF/RF on my model A5 (no meter to die, no E/V) -- perhaps yours can benefit from a cleaning. More details here:
http://corsopolaris.net/supercameras/vitessa/vitessaeng.html
Can't comment on current prices. Previously they've always been much cheaper than, say, Leica LTMs from the same era, and the Ultron beats the comparable Leitz offerings in 50/2.0. I even prefer it to the first version of the Summicron.
I'm not very familiar with the Vito/Vitomatic VFs, but the Albada-type ones I've seen are lovely to use when they aren't faded. If they are faded, as is commonly the case, it's a show-stopper, as it becomes useless for focusing and serves only as a framing/pointing device.
Transcendental folder
It is true to say it's technically a folder, but it's the most rigid one I know and thus I felt worth mentioning given OP's interest in Voigtlander rangefinder models. I think it's the most elegant and underrated of the Voigtlanders. Its Ultron lens is superb, its engineering and design are original and amazing, and it's just incredibly snazzy to operate. I have no problems using the VF/RF on my model A5 (no meter to die, no E/V) -- perhaps yours can benefit from a cleaning. More details here:
http://corsopolaris.net/supercameras/vitessa/vitessaeng.html
Can't comment on current prices. Previously they've always been much cheaper than, say, Leica LTMs from the same era, and the Ultron beats the comparable Leitz offerings in 50/2.0. I even prefer it to the first version of the Summicron.
I'm not very familiar with the Vito/Vitomatic VFs, but the Albada-type ones I've seen are lovely to use when they aren't faded. If they are faded, as is commonly the case, it's a show-stopper, as it becomes useless for focusing and serves only as a framing/pointing device.
msbarnes
Well-known
Thanks for all of your advice! I just want to clarify that by rigid I mean non-folder--a camera that is ready to shoot.
The Vitessa does look beautiful and I have considered it but at the present, I'm looking for a non-folder.
The Vitessa does look beautiful and I have considered it but at the present, I'm looking for a non-folder.
konicaman
konicaman
Can´t go wrong with the Vitomatic II (II, IIa, IIb) 1:1 viewfinder and very compact. A lot of them are still working perfectly, so a CLA is usually not needed.
Jack Conrad
Well-known
I had a wisp of fungus growing just behind the front element group in my IIa and had to open it. Once I found the way in, I noticed just how well made they are. The machining is solid and precise.
Also, while the IIa only has 6, the Vito B has 12 aperture blades for that killer smooth round bokeh everyone seems to love so much.
When I opened it to work on the shutter, the diaphragm lifted and fell apart and I had to put all 12 blades back together again. Not too difficult a job, surprisingly.
Also, while the IIa only has 6, the Vito B has 12 aperture blades for that killer smooth round bokeh everyone seems to love so much.
When I opened it to work on the shutter, the diaphragm lifted and fell apart and I had to put all 12 blades back together again. Not too difficult a job, surprisingly.
dabick42
Well-known
I've been an admirer of Voigtlander cameras since the 60s and used a Vito B with Color Skopar for a long time with very satisfactory results.
However, the best RF Voigtlander in my opinion is the Prominent - the 35mm version made from 1950 to 1960.
This was Voigt's only professional quality RF camera, with a limited range of interchangeable lenses, quirky handling and squinty eyepiece.
It's a camera to either love or hate !
I've had mine ( x3 ) for around 10-12 years and I love 'em.
The lenses are top-class and equal with contempory Leica, the quirky handling is mastered with practice and patience, and if appearance and street cred matter to you, a Prominent with chrome shade and unique ' Turnit ' viewfinder attached is guaranteed to get you noticed...!
However, the best RF Voigtlander in my opinion is the Prominent - the 35mm version made from 1950 to 1960.
This was Voigt's only professional quality RF camera, with a limited range of interchangeable lenses, quirky handling and squinty eyepiece.
It's a camera to either love or hate !
I've had mine ( x3 ) for around 10-12 years and I love 'em.
The lenses are top-class and equal with contempory Leica, the quirky handling is mastered with practice and patience, and if appearance and street cred matter to you, a Prominent with chrome shade and unique ' Turnit ' viewfinder attached is guaranteed to get you noticed...!
PMCC
Late adopter.
Your preference, of course. Since the topic included Voigtlander RFs, the Vitessa came to mind.
Due to its unique design, when walking about with the doors open and lens extended, the Vitessa is ready to shoot but not unwieldy or insecure. The lens assembly with doors is rock-solid and doesn't protrude any more than a fixed lens. And there are also the later, non-folding Vitessa T models, which feature lens interchangeability. Vitessas are quirky cameras, but the quirks are easy to master and mainly fun to use.
Good luck in your search. Let us know what you decide.
batterytypehah!
Lord of the Dings
The OP stated up front, as clearly as possible, the following:
To suggest a Vitessa or Prominent borders on being disrespectful, I find.
To suggest a Vitessa or Prominent borders on being disrespectful, I find.
dabick42
Well-known
@ batterytypehah! - -
What's this ''disrespectful'' jazz all about ?
I merely mentioned the Prominent as being an example of a very good RF Voigtlander, and thought my views on it might have been of interest to SOMEBODY or ANYBODY reading them.
I credit the OP with having sufficient intelligence to make his own mind up as to what he buys, irrespective of what I or anybody else says.
What's this ''disrespectful'' jazz all about ?
I merely mentioned the Prominent as being an example of a very good RF Voigtlander, and thought my views on it might have been of interest to SOMEBODY or ANYBODY reading them.
I credit the OP with having sufficient intelligence to make his own mind up as to what he buys, irrespective of what I or anybody else says.
Muggins
Junk magnet
You've just made me dig out my Vitomatic, and you are absolutely right.
Must have muddled it with my Werra 3, where the EV lock is a PITA. Sorry guys, I shall go do some awful penance!
Adrian
batterytypehah!
Lord of the Dings
You've already answered your own question.
batterytypehah!
Lord of the Dings
You've just made me dig out my Vitomatic, and you are absolutely right.
Sorry guys, I shall go do some awful penance!
Adrian
Not at all, in fact I've since realized that you may have had the Vito B in mind. That one does indeed have a rigid lock, albeit one that is much easier to override than a Retina's.
dabick42
Well-known
@ batterytypehah! - - -
I recommend you look up the meaning of ''disrespectful'' in a dictionary...
I recommend you look up the meaning of ''disrespectful'' in a dictionary...
batterytypehah!
Lord of the Dings
msbarnes, one more recommendation: Personally, I would never trust the strap lug design on the Vito B family. They're supposed to mate with a "buttonhole" of sorts on each end of the strap. I have my doubts that this is reliable, given the camera's considerable weight. So the ERC is practically a must. Fortunately, Voigtländer made very high quality cases.
Also, selenium cells fare best when stored dark and dry, and if the camera comes with the case, you're pretty much guaranteed one out of two right there.
Also, selenium cells fare best when stored dark and dry, and if the camera comes with the case, you're pretty much guaranteed one out of two right there.
back alley
IMAGES
let's calm down folks...