lscaglio
Member
Hi!
I started to use vuescan with my Dymage Scan Dual IV and I have some problems!!
I scan B/W negatives (TriX) and I don't know how to set vuescan:
color restore?
black point?
film (the trix is not on the list)?
May you help me?
Thanks a lot
Luca :bang:
I started to use vuescan with my Dymage Scan Dual IV and I have some problems!!
I scan B/W negatives (TriX) and I don't know how to set vuescan:
color restore?
black point?
film (the trix is not on the list)?
May you help me?
Thanks a lot
Luca :bang:
schmoozit
Schmoozit good...
Here goes:
First off, it is better to scan your black and white, or color negs, as slides. The scanner and Vuescan will utilize every ounce of their potential when in this mode. It makes a difference! Set to "slide film" as apposed to "image".
Set the optical resolution/pixels to the highest the scanner is rated for optically, as apposed to having it interpolate the data. Set it for the highest bit depth available, but you will not benefit from the RGBI setting (though I don't think the Dimage has an infrared channel, so that option wouldn't likely appear). You can leave the preview res on auto. I'd leave the number of passes at one, and not use the long pass option. You may benefit slightly from them on a poor (very poor) exposure, but they are generally not needed, and can cause softening of the image.
This is where it gets important! Go down and set the "Lock Exposure" option. After doing so, the box below "RGB exposure" will have a value in it. If it isn't "1", you'll need to set it to that value. This will give you more options and control. "Exposure clipping" I always keep at zero, which is probably best. Down below that, you'll want to check "Lock film base color", and "Lock image color", so you'll have more control over the histogram and within the color options tab.
After setting these options, you should be fine to do the preview scan. Once complete, go to the "Preview Hist." view, and the color tab. From there, set the film base color for all three, red, green, and blue, to zero. From there you can use your mouse to move the three colored triangles for both the white and dark points. I never bother to use this for the actual white and black point, but rather to get the scan as nuetral as possible. You can do this by aligning all three channels to meet directly where they touch the bottom of the scale. Do this for both the right and left sides of the histogram, and the image will scan almost perfectly grayscale.
This method is the best for insuring you get the most possible information from the neg and into the computer, where I assume you'll be further editing it. I always hit channel mixer in PS and check the monochrome box and hit okay. That removes the slight color casts that you will always have. Next, I use curves to flop the image into a positive; just pull the top right corner down to the bottom, and the bottom left up to the top, and you're in business. You can complete other edits as you normally would.
Hope you got all that. If not, post specific questions.
First off, it is better to scan your black and white, or color negs, as slides. The scanner and Vuescan will utilize every ounce of their potential when in this mode. It makes a difference! Set to "slide film" as apposed to "image".
Set the optical resolution/pixels to the highest the scanner is rated for optically, as apposed to having it interpolate the data. Set it for the highest bit depth available, but you will not benefit from the RGBI setting (though I don't think the Dimage has an infrared channel, so that option wouldn't likely appear). You can leave the preview res on auto. I'd leave the number of passes at one, and not use the long pass option. You may benefit slightly from them on a poor (very poor) exposure, but they are generally not needed, and can cause softening of the image.
This is where it gets important! Go down and set the "Lock Exposure" option. After doing so, the box below "RGB exposure" will have a value in it. If it isn't "1", you'll need to set it to that value. This will give you more options and control. "Exposure clipping" I always keep at zero, which is probably best. Down below that, you'll want to check "Lock film base color", and "Lock image color", so you'll have more control over the histogram and within the color options tab.
After setting these options, you should be fine to do the preview scan. Once complete, go to the "Preview Hist." view, and the color tab. From there, set the film base color for all three, red, green, and blue, to zero. From there you can use your mouse to move the three colored triangles for both the white and dark points. I never bother to use this for the actual white and black point, but rather to get the scan as nuetral as possible. You can do this by aligning all three channels to meet directly where they touch the bottom of the scale. Do this for both the right and left sides of the histogram, and the image will scan almost perfectly grayscale.
This method is the best for insuring you get the most possible information from the neg and into the computer, where I assume you'll be further editing it. I always hit channel mixer in PS and check the monochrome box and hit okay. That removes the slight color casts that you will always have. Next, I use curves to flop the image into a positive; just pull the top right corner down to the bottom, and the bottom left up to the top, and you're in business. You can complete other edits as you normally would.
Hope you got all that. If not, post specific questions.
GeneW
Veteran
Luca, I use Vuescan this way for Tri-X:
1. Scan as negative
2. Black point and white point set to 0
3. Film set to Ilford XP2
4. Output to 16-bit gray TIFF
5. Adjust brightness to suit the density of the negative strip
I use the KISS principle.
I use Vuescan is to produce a dull, greyish scan that contains the full tonal range to provide Photoshop with the fullest amount of scanned information to work with. The real work happens in Photoshop.
Gene
1. Scan as negative
2. Black point and white point set to 0
3. Film set to Ilford XP2
4. Output to 16-bit gray TIFF
5. Adjust brightness to suit the density of the negative strip
I use the KISS principle.
I use Vuescan is to produce a dull, greyish scan that contains the full tonal range to provide Photoshop with the fullest amount of scanned information to work with. The real work happens in Photoshop.
Gene
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lscaglio
Member
Well, now I have two completely different solutions....I will try and let you know
Thanks to both
Luca
Thanks to both
Luca
T
Todd.Hanz
Guest
Another vote for scanning in color for BW, seems everyone using the Scan Dual IV finds this out eventually.
Todd
Todd
dmr
Registered Abuser
Todd.Hanz said:
Okay, I'll bite.
What is it that I'll find out eventually WRT scanning B&W in color?
So far I've had very good results scanning my older B&W negatives as B&W negatives and then tweaking slightly in Photoshop.
schmoozit
Schmoozit good...
What is it that I'll find out eventually WRT scanning B&W in color?
Better shadow and highlight detail. That is in addition to the simple fact that you will simply have a wider lattitude. For some reason, whether software, hardware, or both, scanning as a neg, and even moreso it seems as a b&w neg, you are limited in what lenghts the setup will go to pull all the info out of the neg. There seems to be improvement going from b&w neg to color neg, and even more going to slide scanning mode.
I have to believe that it depends on both software and scanner, however, so YMMV. But you have to admit, negs are designed to not have the "shortcomings" of slide film. It is made specifically to make printing easier, thus the "print film" title.
Edit: About your photo: I'd bet dollars to donuts that you could pull a good amount of detail out of the crane(?) at bottom left, and perhaps some in the warehouse as well.
Better shadow and highlight detail. That is in addition to the simple fact that you will simply have a wider lattitude. For some reason, whether software, hardware, or both, scanning as a neg, and even moreso it seems as a b&w neg, you are limited in what lenghts the setup will go to pull all the info out of the neg. There seems to be improvement going from b&w neg to color neg, and even more going to slide scanning mode.
I have to believe that it depends on both software and scanner, however, so YMMV. But you have to admit, negs are designed to not have the "shortcomings" of slide film. It is made specifically to make printing easier, thus the "print film" title.
Edit: About your photo: I'd bet dollars to donuts that you could pull a good amount of detail out of the crane(?) at bottom left, and perhaps some in the warehouse as well.
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GeneW
Veteran
I'm no expert on this, but I'll wade in anyway, and please correct me, folks, if I've got this wrong.dmr436 said:Okay, I'll bite.
What is it that I'll find out eventually WRT scanning B&W in color?
So far I've had very good results scanning my older B&W negatives as B&W negatives and then tweaking slightly in Photoshop.
With most of the software that comes with a scanner, there is some clipping of darkest blacks and whitest whites. Scanning B&W negatives as slides, then inverting in Photoshop preserves data that would have been clipped. Also, I'm told, you get less grain aliasing this way, especially with Nikon scanners.
Having said that, there is a prevailing body of opinion that with Vuescan this step is totally unnecessary, that you'll be hard pressed to beat Vuescan's direct scanning of negs as negs. My own experiments bear this out, which is why I've adopted a KISS principle when using Vuescan, but I still experiment with scanning as slides once in awhile to make sure I'm not missing something ...
Gene
GeneW
Veteran
Schmoozit, we were posting at the same time. Between your post and mine, a perfect example of YMMV, eh?
Gene
Gene
schmoozit
Schmoozit good...
I think that's about right, Gene. Even using Vuescan and a Canon FS4000 dedicated film scanner, I can see a difference. Of course, I like to push and pull my film around (or at least test it's lattitude while using Diafine), so I have a lot of stuff that necessitates my workflow. Perhaps more straightforward exposures wouldn't need this, so I'll experiment again soon.
K
Kin Lau
Guest
I'm using a Scan Dual (the 1st one), and if the tonal range of the neg is normal, or a little over/under exposed, then scanning as a neg is just fine. If the tonal range is too great, or too under exposed, then scanning as colour slide first works better.
GeneW
Veteran
Schmoozit, Kin, thanks. I'm going to experiment more with scanning as a slide.
Gene
Gene
dmr
Registered Abuser
schmoozit said:
Ok, you're on. When I get back in town I'll re-scan in color slide and color negative mode and see what happens.
taffer
void
schmoozit, your post is not saved in my vuescan directory as a tips document
i tried scanning as slide film and indeed came out with what looks (to me) like a better image, so, thanks !!
i tried scanning as slide film and indeed came out with what looks (to me) like a better image, so, thanks !!
schmoozit
Schmoozit good...
Cool, Taffer.
jlw
Rangefinder camera pedant
I've tried scanning as slide with a Canon FS4000 and saw no advantage to it. Of course, when scanning in b&w negative mode, I routinely override the preset white and black clip points, enter my own brightness levels, and choose a contrast index suited to the range of the negative.
For important scans, I go a step farther. In my experience, NO combination of VueScan settings gives really optimal results across the full density range of conventional b&w film (which is much wider than that of any color film, since the image of b&w film is metallilc and the image of color films consists of semi-transparent dyes.)
So, I scan once with settings optimized for shadow detail: I lighten the scanned image enough that even the darkest shadow areas are slightly gray rather than dead black. Then I scan again with settings optimized for highlight detail: I set the controls so that even the lightest part of the image scans as a very light gray rather than dead white.
Then I bring the two scans into Photoshop as different layers of the same file, and use Photoshop's level-blending controls and layer masks to combine them into one image with a full range of tones.
This gives me a darkroom-like ability to do local tone control in the image, something you can't get by using Photoshop's dodge and burn tools. For example, if you start with a single scan, you can't bring back the detail in a blown-out highlight by using the Photoshop burn tool -- it'll make the existing pixels darker, but it won't add any information to the area. If you've made two scans, one with fully detailed highlights and the other with fully detailed shadows, it's easy to use layer masks to blend them together to get the overall balance you want.
Another benefit of doing two scans is that you reduce scanner noise. If you're trying to squeeze the entire tonal range of a black-and-white negative into a single scan, the negative's densest areas will fall down toward the lower threshold of the scanner's sensitivity range; this is where noise is most likely to become a problem. (Example: Suppose that random noise introduces a variation of +/- 1 unit in each pixel's value. If the pixel's actual value is, say, 250, a variance of 1 won't make much of a difference. If the pixel's actual value is 2, the variation will amount to 50% randomness!) By scanning twice, you can keep the image's values within the "meat" of the scanner's capture range.
I admit that the scan-twice technique may be merely time-consuming overkill if your usual photo subjects have a well-controlled range of tones. But I tend to photograph under difficult lighting conditions (see the pictures in my gallery for examples) and I need to use this technique to get the most out of my negatives. Besides, I find I kind of enjoy the opportunity to play with the tonal balance of the image "by hand" (via layer masks) rather than just by moving adjustment sliders -- it recaptures some of the same sense of craft as darkroom manipulation. And since layer masks are non-destructive, I can always start over if I don't like the results, without having to go back and rescan.
For important scans, I go a step farther. In my experience, NO combination of VueScan settings gives really optimal results across the full density range of conventional b&w film (which is much wider than that of any color film, since the image of b&w film is metallilc and the image of color films consists of semi-transparent dyes.)
So, I scan once with settings optimized for shadow detail: I lighten the scanned image enough that even the darkest shadow areas are slightly gray rather than dead black. Then I scan again with settings optimized for highlight detail: I set the controls so that even the lightest part of the image scans as a very light gray rather than dead white.
Then I bring the two scans into Photoshop as different layers of the same file, and use Photoshop's level-blending controls and layer masks to combine them into one image with a full range of tones.
This gives me a darkroom-like ability to do local tone control in the image, something you can't get by using Photoshop's dodge and burn tools. For example, if you start with a single scan, you can't bring back the detail in a blown-out highlight by using the Photoshop burn tool -- it'll make the existing pixels darker, but it won't add any information to the area. If you've made two scans, one with fully detailed highlights and the other with fully detailed shadows, it's easy to use layer masks to blend them together to get the overall balance you want.
Another benefit of doing two scans is that you reduce scanner noise. If you're trying to squeeze the entire tonal range of a black-and-white negative into a single scan, the negative's densest areas will fall down toward the lower threshold of the scanner's sensitivity range; this is where noise is most likely to become a problem. (Example: Suppose that random noise introduces a variation of +/- 1 unit in each pixel's value. If the pixel's actual value is, say, 250, a variance of 1 won't make much of a difference. If the pixel's actual value is 2, the variation will amount to 50% randomness!) By scanning twice, you can keep the image's values within the "meat" of the scanner's capture range.
I admit that the scan-twice technique may be merely time-consuming overkill if your usual photo subjects have a well-controlled range of tones. But I tend to photograph under difficult lighting conditions (see the pictures in my gallery for examples) and I need to use this technique to get the most out of my negatives. Besides, I find I kind of enjoy the opportunity to play with the tonal balance of the image "by hand" (via layer masks) rather than just by moving adjustment sliders -- it recaptures some of the same sense of craft as darkroom manipulation. And since layer masks are non-destructive, I can always start over if I don't like the results, without having to go back and rescan.
djon
Well-known
I use a Nikon V and Vuescan.
I've closely compared RGB Vs B&W/16 and found the results identical for my purposes, though someone wanting to play more in Photoshop might have different needs...I simply want sharp B&W with traditional controls for tone, density, contrast, dodging/burning, and I sometimes take advantage of controls for saturation in black through QTRgui. .. sometimes reveling in the genuine-fractals-type options in Qimage for 12X18 enlargements that were marginal at 8.5X11
Scanning neg as positive may be necessary with Nikonscan software...but seems actively undesirable for Nikon with Vuescan: I find neg-as-pos (neg-as-slide) loses very fine detail, compared to simply scanning neg-as-neg...despite alleged lossless nature of TIFF.
Talking about B&W prints suggests that we MAY also want to consider B&W film, and even silver B&W film, processed by us. If we ARE processing our own film, we gain a tremendous amount of additional tonal control, making Photoshopping less the center of our activity. Kinda' nice.
I've closely compared RGB Vs B&W/16 and found the results identical for my purposes, though someone wanting to play more in Photoshop might have different needs...I simply want sharp B&W with traditional controls for tone, density, contrast, dodging/burning, and I sometimes take advantage of controls for saturation in black through QTRgui. .. sometimes reveling in the genuine-fractals-type options in Qimage for 12X18 enlargements that were marginal at 8.5X11
Scanning neg as positive may be necessary with Nikonscan software...but seems actively undesirable for Nikon with Vuescan: I find neg-as-pos (neg-as-slide) loses very fine detail, compared to simply scanning neg-as-neg...despite alleged lossless nature of TIFF.
Talking about B&W prints suggests that we MAY also want to consider B&W film, and even silver B&W film, processed by us. If we ARE processing our own film, we gain a tremendous amount of additional tonal control, making Photoshopping less the center of our activity. Kinda' nice.
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Honu-Hugger
Well-known
I have read through this thread with interest as I have a new, yet to be plugged in Nikon 9000 sitting next to me ready to roll. It seems as though what has been advised here may apply to other scanners as well? I have not committed to a third-party software program yet (VueScan or Silverfast, etc.) but I am now curious as to how I will handle my B&W negs. I work with PhotoShop...sounds as though it might be wise to scan them as slides.
RObert Budding
D'oh!
Honu-Hugger - Please give us an update on your new scanner once you get it running.
Robert
Robert
kaiyen
local man of mystery
I don't know - I scan as color RGB, 16-bit, with a black and white profile (so it's actually only using one of the channels [or whatever algorithm vuescan might use to get a neutral scan], but I need RGB for photokit sharpener anyway) and the results for me are great. I pin my EI and development times down so that I generally don't have to do two separate scans, though I have done that in the past.
One of the major reasons to scan in slide mode in NikonScan was to avoid the "pepper grain" that appeared in large single tone areas in B&W. Vuescan solved this in general, as far as I know, even in negative mode.
I'm going to do some more testing this weekend with "normal" negs and dense ones...
allan
One of the major reasons to scan in slide mode in NikonScan was to avoid the "pepper grain" that appeared in large single tone areas in B&W. Vuescan solved this in general, as far as I know, even in negative mode.
I'm going to do some more testing this weekend with "normal" negs and dense ones...
allan