Aaron Hellman
Member
I typically use Ilford warmtone RC paper with a pearl surface when printing in the darkroom. I would like to try a fiber paper for comparison. I mostly print pictures of people. Any recommendations on a paper to try? Will I notice a difference between a fiber and RC print when they are framed and behind glass? Thank you for your help.
Corran
Well-known
Stick with Ilford of course.
newsgrunt
Well-known
Bergger looks great. also, Oriental isn't as bad as many make out. It's not as good as the old paper, but the price is very attractive.
DominikDUK
Well-known
Since you are already familiar with Warmtone RC you could try the Ilford warmtone FB Paper which is very highly regarded. Personally love Foma papers they are also less expensive than Ilford their Warmtone paper is Fomatone MG.
miha
Established
What Dominik said.
Ko.Fe.
Lenses 35/21 Gears 46/20
If nothing is wrong with Ilford RC, then FB should be fine.
Glass and framed? Have you tried Lith print, yet?
If not I see no significant difference in frame and glassed, between RC, DC and inks.
Holding them in hands - different.
Glass and framed? Have you tried Lith print, yet?
If not I see no significant difference in frame and glassed, between RC, DC and inks.
Holding them in hands - different.
drewbarb
picnic like it's 1999
Yes, you will see a difference in your prints, even mounted behind glass. Good fiber paper prints look so much nicer than RC paper (and they last longer, when properly handled) that they only question you will ask is why you waited so long to switch. One thing worth mentioning, too, is that fiber paper requires a little more care in the darkroom and in finishing. Fiber paper takes longer to fix properly, and they need more washing (and ideally a perma-wash/fixer remover) to rinse all the chemistry out. RC papers fix and wash very fast because the coating keeps the liquid from absorbing into the substrate. Also, RC paper dries fairly flat but fiber prints will curl while drying and need to be flattened later. So fiber printing is more work, but it's certainly worth it for superior results.
Here's my routine: I fix fiber papers for 5 or so, then my prints go into a holding tray with circulating water while I keep printing. Once I have ten or 20 prints in the holding tray, or I'm done with that session or that image or whatever, these prints go to a fixer remover bath for 3-4 minutes where they are constantly circulated/agitated by hand. Then they might go into a toning bath, or straight into the final wash for at 20 or 30 minutes. Then they get CAREFULLY squeegee'd and laid out on a drying rack.
Then, as I mentioned, once they're dry you'll need to flatten them. I weight fiber paper prints under a heavy piece of glass with a few books piled on top for a few days, or I might give them a minute or two in the heat press if I have to. Some papers curl more than others, and they will dry flatter the more water you can squeegee out of them- but be careful because it's easy to damage wet fiber prints. I've even squeegee'd off some of the emulsion on occasion! If you lay prints out face down to dry they will dry flatter than prints dried face up- but you can get marks from your drying racks in the emulsion, depending upon the surfaces, so use care and your own best judgement about how you are going to dry. Also, always make sure your drying rack screens are scrupulously clean!
Like everything else, care with your technique will make as much or more of a difference in your results than your materials. Have fun!
Here's my routine: I fix fiber papers for 5 or so, then my prints go into a holding tray with circulating water while I keep printing. Once I have ten or 20 prints in the holding tray, or I'm done with that session or that image or whatever, these prints go to a fixer remover bath for 3-4 minutes where they are constantly circulated/agitated by hand. Then they might go into a toning bath, or straight into the final wash for at 20 or 30 minutes. Then they get CAREFULLY squeegee'd and laid out on a drying rack.
Then, as I mentioned, once they're dry you'll need to flatten them. I weight fiber paper prints under a heavy piece of glass with a few books piled on top for a few days, or I might give them a minute or two in the heat press if I have to. Some papers curl more than others, and they will dry flatter the more water you can squeegee out of them- but be careful because it's easy to damage wet fiber prints. I've even squeegee'd off some of the emulsion on occasion! If you lay prints out face down to dry they will dry flatter than prints dried face up- but you can get marks from your drying racks in the emulsion, depending upon the surfaces, so use care and your own best judgement about how you are going to dry. Also, always make sure your drying rack screens are scrupulously clean!
Like everything else, care with your technique will make as much or more of a difference in your results than your materials. Have fun!
Steve M.
Veteran
What Eric said. Adox MCC 110. And yes, you will see brighter whites and deeper blacks compared to RC.
MCC 110 is the best paper I have ever used, and by a large margin. Not cheap, but since I never have to make proofs or filter it for contrast, I save money that way. Just make your test exposures, decide which one you like, print it, and frame it. A superior paper in every way. Read the reviews on it at Freestyle Photo and elsewhere.
MCC 110 is the best paper I have ever used, and by a large margin. Not cheap, but since I never have to make proofs or filter it for contrast, I save money that way. Just make your test exposures, decide which one you like, print it, and frame it. A superior paper in every way. Read the reviews on it at Freestyle Photo and elsewhere.
Bill Clark
Veteran
Give it a try.
When I first started darkroom printing all there was available were fiber based papers. No variable contrast papers either. I used #2 most of the time.
Now all I use are resin coated papers. Variable contrast, which makes it easy peasy with my Chromega color head on my Omega enlarger.
Fiber based have their challenges. From getting the paper flat to put in the enlarging easel, the lengthly wash times, getting the paper to dry flat, I did my time for a few decades.
RC is so much easier, at least it is for me.
Doesn’t last as long? Keep the negative.
But I suggest, give it a try. You may like it.
When I first started darkroom printing all there was available were fiber based papers. No variable contrast papers either. I used #2 most of the time.
Now all I use are resin coated papers. Variable contrast, which makes it easy peasy with my Chromega color head on my Omega enlarger.
Fiber based have their challenges. From getting the paper flat to put in the enlarging easel, the lengthly wash times, getting the paper to dry flat, I did my time for a few decades.
RC is so much easier, at least it is for me.
Doesn’t last as long? Keep the negative.
But I suggest, give it a try. You may like it.
Freakscene
Obscure member
Adox MCC 110 and the current series of Bergger FB papers are technically the best - highest DMax, least fogging of highlights from extended development. The former bleaches slowly, the latter more quickly.
Foma make a lot of very interesting and beautiful surfaces.
There are no ‘bad’ papers these days - QA is good, and they all work extremely well. I don’t like Ilford FB warmtone because it looks greenish in regular developers and needs specialised warmtone developers for the image tone to look right to me.
Marty
Foma make a lot of very interesting and beautiful surfaces.
There are no ‘bad’ papers these days - QA is good, and they all work extremely well. I don’t like Ilford FB warmtone because it looks greenish in regular developers and needs specialised warmtone developers for the image tone to look right to me.
Marty
Corran
Well-known
Ilford Warmtone in Ansco 130 (purchase from PF) works great and is not green, and lasts forever - even keeps well in open trays. My favorite for MG printing.
Also the only paper with a semi-matte finish.
Also the only paper with a semi-matte finish.
Freakscene
Obscure member
That is among the best ways to get Ilford FB Warmtone to look good.
Adox, Foma and Bergger all also have semi-matte finishes, although they all look different.
Marty
Corran
Well-known
If they do they are not commonly found or advertised. Frankly there's so many numbers and types from Adox that my eyes gloss over. I tried some Adox in years past, matte surface, and the tone was great but it was much more finnicky than Ilford and the matte was way flatter looking than I expected (again, compared to Ilford matte).
Personally I would never recommend Adox papers to new FB printers as I think Ilford (especially glossy) is way easier to print on, for whatever reason. Certainly if one works with it and is pursuing a certain quality it may be appropriate. For learning, I think an easy paper to start is better and then move to something else if wanting a certain look.
Also, one should not overlook the amazing Ilford ART 300 for some images!
Personally I would never recommend Adox papers to new FB printers as I think Ilford (especially glossy) is way easier to print on, for whatever reason. Certainly if one works with it and is pursuing a certain quality it may be appropriate. For learning, I think an easy paper to start is better and then move to something else if wanting a certain look.
Also, one should not overlook the amazing Ilford ART 300 for some images!
Erik van Straten
Veteran
There is some "semi-matt", but not much.
Look here:
https://www.fotoimpex.com/
or here (but it is not MCC 110):
http://www.adox.de/Photo/photopaper/variotone-fibre-based-paper/
Erik.
Erik van Straten
Veteran
Hmm, after many years of using Ilford I was so happy when I finally got Adox MCC 110. There is almost no difference in tone when the paper is wet or dry (one of the most difficult tasks of a printer is to anticipate on the tone of the dry print) and above all split grade printing on MCC 110 is miraculous.
Erik.
DominikDUK
Well-known
Adox is not available in Matt :-( only in glossy and semi-matt. did you mean Foma. Matt Foma is also not as matt as Ilford MG Matt.
Rob-F
Likes Leicas
I have always come back to Ilford FB papers after trying others. But after these positive comments about Adox, I think I will try some!
kermaier
Well-known
I used to love Oriental Seagull, but as others have noted, it’s not quite the same product anymore. Still a good MG paper.
Another fun thing to try is using graded FB papers like Ilford Galerie. Since a graded paper has a fixed max density, you can do things like letting it cook in dev for a long time to bring up detail in overexposed highlights, without blocking up shadow detail.
Enjoy!
Another fun thing to try is using graded FB papers like Ilford Galerie. Since a graded paper has a fixed max density, you can do things like letting it cook in dev for a long time to bring up detail in overexposed highlights, without blocking up shadow detail.
Enjoy!
FujiLove
Well-known
If you're mainly holding prints in your hands, want to produce a small number of prints in the absolute best quality and can bear to deal with over an hour of print washing, hours of drying and days of flattening, then yes, fibre paper is the best. I love Ilford's semi matt finish papers. Fibre paper is also the first choice if you want to tone your prints, as it generally takes much better than RC.
However, if you're mainly putting prints in frames behind glass, and just want to produce lovely untoned prints, I'd stick with RC. I doubt you will notice any difference once they're behind glass.
I now do 90% of my printing on Ilford RC Satin paper. It's a lovely semi-matt finish, and great value.
However, if you're mainly putting prints in frames behind glass, and just want to produce lovely untoned prints, I'd stick with RC. I doubt you will notice any difference once they're behind glass.
I now do 90% of my printing on Ilford RC Satin paper. It's a lovely semi-matt finish, and great value.
Corran
Well-known
Dominik, Erik, apologies but yes I was thinking of Foma.
I found it, personally, to be more matte and harder to use than Ilford. I also found it to have a wicked dry-down.
If Adox has less dry-down, that is an interesting property.
Regarding availability, the other thing about these papers is the USA availability for those of us over here - it is lacking.
Like someone else said, all the papers available today are excellent. Rather than reading others' opinions on the internet, really one MUST try them. This is arduous and expensive for a new user (not to mention wasteful and discouraging often since their technique is low at first) so that is why I always recommend Ilford Classic Glossy for a new Fiber user - and only after some learning and technique is established, start trying new things. It is simply easier to print on.
I found it, personally, to be more matte and harder to use than Ilford. I also found it to have a wicked dry-down.
If Adox has less dry-down, that is an interesting property.
Regarding availability, the other thing about these papers is the USA availability for those of us over here - it is lacking.
Like someone else said, all the papers available today are excellent. Rather than reading others' opinions on the internet, really one MUST try them. This is arduous and expensive for a new user (not to mention wasteful and discouraging often since their technique is low at first) so that is why I always recommend Ilford Classic Glossy for a new Fiber user - and only after some learning and technique is established, start trying new things. It is simply easier to print on.