NickTrop
Veteran
Cartier-Bresson was born in Chanteloup-en-Brie, near Paris, France, the eldest of five children. His father was a wealthy textile manufacturer whose Cartier-Bresson thread was a staple of French sewing kits. (Wikipedia)
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Here's my take on HCB. Dude was born way wealthy in France. Of course, he didn't actually have to do anything useful for a living so he studied art. Gave him a good handle on composition - sorta like David Lynch and other film directors who first study painting and art. Due to his family wealth, did the kinda "cool" (but unuseful things) trust fund babies get to do - get "involved" with "art movements", hook up with "intellectuals", read Heart of Darkness - jaunts off to Africa for a while...
He then - for much of his life, walked around France and other places and took a ton of pics with his Leica. Yeah! I'd love to do that! He was credited as the first "Street Photographer" but was he really the first "digital photographer"? Shooting pic, after pic, after pic - hundreds of feet of film - never bothering with the tedious "grunt work" of developing the negatives and making prints (which is 1/2 of the art when you "make" a picture). Never. Even amateurs do this. Should we be crediting his printer as much as him? Would A.A. ever outsource this critical part of the work flow? Are his more compelling pieces a function of "even the blind monkey stumbles upon the occasional banana" - shooting pic after pic until a cool one come out, like a digital "photographer"? If I took some photos I like off the galleries in this very forum - black and white stuff, and slapped them into a book and called it an HCB collection, would people gush that it's "brilliant" because the think it's HCB? Is his work really that good or is it a function of the "Halo Effect"? Does some of his "genius" result because they're old black and white pics of a different time, a different culture, a different era - French men with thick handle bar mustaches wearing derbies and trench coats posting bill boards in Paris? Looks cool now, but during its era was it really all "that"? Or is 2/3's of its appeal (and that of all his work) attributable to the nostalgia effect and we like old black and whites pics taken during another time, another place? We like catch-phrases, and HCB came up with a doozey - right up there with "hold the pickles, hold the lettuce" in "the decisive moment". Did he play into our love of bumper sticker/T-shirt catch phrases? He does have a cool French designer name. It can even be initialized - HCB, like "BK" for Burger King. Do you see the marketing forces at work here?
Are we "expected" - as amateur photographers, to like certain "names" in photography - so we "do"? Are we like kids who allege to like "Frank Zappa" "music" because - ya know, all real cool people like Frank Zappa even though we all know he kinda sucked and his music is unlistenable (but - shhhh, don't admit it because people won't think you're cool...) Back to "the decisive moment" - is it really all that profound? Yeah - miss that kid blowing out the candles on his birthday cake, blew "the decisive moment". Of course you want to capture the image at the "exact" point in time when it has max impact. Is he overstating the obvious but (again) it makes for a good catch-phrase?
Do you really like, appreciate, understand HCB? Or is it hype, marketing, and mythology? Do you nod along like you did when someone says they dig Zappa - because, ya know, you're kinda expected to? And, saying he isn't "all that" sorta taboo, a sacrilege? Thou shall not take the name of HCB in vain! Was HCB really "all that"?
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Here's my take on HCB. Dude was born way wealthy in France. Of course, he didn't actually have to do anything useful for a living so he studied art. Gave him a good handle on composition - sorta like David Lynch and other film directors who first study painting and art. Due to his family wealth, did the kinda "cool" (but unuseful things) trust fund babies get to do - get "involved" with "art movements", hook up with "intellectuals", read Heart of Darkness - jaunts off to Africa for a while...
He then - for much of his life, walked around France and other places and took a ton of pics with his Leica. Yeah! I'd love to do that! He was credited as the first "Street Photographer" but was he really the first "digital photographer"? Shooting pic, after pic, after pic - hundreds of feet of film - never bothering with the tedious "grunt work" of developing the negatives and making prints (which is 1/2 of the art when you "make" a picture). Never. Even amateurs do this. Should we be crediting his printer as much as him? Would A.A. ever outsource this critical part of the work flow? Are his more compelling pieces a function of "even the blind monkey stumbles upon the occasional banana" - shooting pic after pic until a cool one come out, like a digital "photographer"? If I took some photos I like off the galleries in this very forum - black and white stuff, and slapped them into a book and called it an HCB collection, would people gush that it's "brilliant" because the think it's HCB? Is his work really that good or is it a function of the "Halo Effect"? Does some of his "genius" result because they're old black and white pics of a different time, a different culture, a different era - French men with thick handle bar mustaches wearing derbies and trench coats posting bill boards in Paris? Looks cool now, but during its era was it really all "that"? Or is 2/3's of its appeal (and that of all his work) attributable to the nostalgia effect and we like old black and whites pics taken during another time, another place? We like catch-phrases, and HCB came up with a doozey - right up there with "hold the pickles, hold the lettuce" in "the decisive moment". Did he play into our love of bumper sticker/T-shirt catch phrases? He does have a cool French designer name. It can even be initialized - HCB, like "BK" for Burger King. Do you see the marketing forces at work here?
Are we "expected" - as amateur photographers, to like certain "names" in photography - so we "do"? Are we like kids who allege to like "Frank Zappa" "music" because - ya know, all real cool people like Frank Zappa even though we all know he kinda sucked and his music is unlistenable (but - shhhh, don't admit it because people won't think you're cool...) Back to "the decisive moment" - is it really all that profound? Yeah - miss that kid blowing out the candles on his birthday cake, blew "the decisive moment". Of course you want to capture the image at the "exact" point in time when it has max impact. Is he overstating the obvious but (again) it makes for a good catch-phrase?
Do you really like, appreciate, understand HCB? Or is it hype, marketing, and mythology? Do you nod along like you did when someone says they dig Zappa - because, ya know, you're kinda expected to? And, saying he isn't "all that" sorta taboo, a sacrilege? Thou shall not take the name of HCB in vain! Was HCB really "all that"?
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Brennotdan
Established
yea boyee!
antiquark
Derek Ross
Yes.
As far as whipping off hundreds of pictures, I understand HCB photographed Gandhi and his funeral with only 5 rolls of film. I think I saw that in an interview with Charlie Rose.
back alley
IMAGES
zappa was a genius easily...
adams is considered a god but i can't stand most of his calender art.
karsh was a portrait genius too but it was mostly butterfly lighting and boring to me.
hcb is a genius no matter if he printed his own stuff or not. he was not the first street shooter btw, lots of larger format guys shooting before him.
adams is considered a god but i can't stand most of his calender art.
karsh was a portrait genius too but it was mostly butterfly lighting and boring to me.
hcb is a genius no matter if he printed his own stuff or not. he was not the first street shooter btw, lots of larger format guys shooting before him.
f/stopblues
photo loner
I very much enjoy looking at his photos. I don't really care if they're a result of "accuracy by volume" or that he had nothing better to do. I don't believe merit should have anything to do with the final result of a piece of art. Same as my indifference on the format (35mm, MF, LF, digi, fabrication). A good photo stands on its own, and I believe his body of work, indeed, stands on its own.
Of course, enjoying it is subjective, so YMMV!
Of course, enjoying it is subjective, so YMMV!
R
rich815
Guest
Finally a photography thread discussing HCB. About time.
Ororaro
Well-known
The problem with HCB is not how much good he was but rather the large amount of bad photographers...
Berliner
Well-known
The fact that he took most of his photos with a 50mm lens... Never cropped his images...., never had Photoshop to tweak his negative, and yet has thousands of images that WERE printable, let alone (subjectively) meaningful, is really amazing. He's not MY favorite, but, he IS known for the decisive moment...he just’ clicked the shutter' as he stated... I wish I could 'click' the shutter, and send the cartridge to Wal-Mart and get something like he got.
Yes, he was a trust fund baby. Yes, he got to do what most of us can only dream of doing. He was a lucky dude...obviously, but a great artist/genius none the less...
I appreciate him, but do not understand him—I don’t think it is possible to ‘understand’ his work. I am not sure HE did. I don't think it's marketing, as he was famous WELL before he was dead, and well before marketing was SUCH the deciding factor it is now. I think he was all that and more....But what do I know...my photo instructor taught me that if I could take well composed images with a 50mm lens without having to crop, then I could call myself a photographer...
Yes, he was a trust fund baby. Yes, he got to do what most of us can only dream of doing. He was a lucky dude...obviously, but a great artist/genius none the less...
I appreciate him, but do not understand him—I don’t think it is possible to ‘understand’ his work. I am not sure HE did. I don't think it's marketing, as he was famous WELL before he was dead, and well before marketing was SUCH the deciding factor it is now. I think he was all that and more....But what do I know...my photo instructor taught me that if I could take well composed images with a 50mm lens without having to crop, then I could call myself a photographer...
Anupam
Well-known
Yes. He was that good!
NickTrop
Veteran
I say you allege to like the work of HCB mainly because you're expected to like HCB. His work has taken on a mythology, has a halo effect. Much of its appeal has to do with the film (black and white) and era (France, decades ago) it was shot and the fact he shot with a Leica. I think if I plucked some interesting black and white stuff from RFF, you would praise it because you thought it was HCB. I think "the decisive moment" is overstating something painfully obvious.
NickTrop
Veteran
I'm not saying he sucked. He had a good eye for composition because of his art background, he developed a good sense of timing. But if you got to run a round France leading a life of leasure, and 24/7, that's all you did all day, snapped away, would your portfolio be as good as his?
NickTrop
Veteran
Serious questions. Reconsider. How much is talent? How much is mythology, "halo effect", inadvertent "catch-phrases", expectation, nostalgia, style? Does his work really effect you? Would you praise it if it didn't have his moniker attached? Would you even recognize it? Is it really any better than any competent amatuer? Would your work be as good if you traveled the globe and took pictures with a Leica and Tri-X film and had a great printer print them? He shot only with a 50mm. Big deal. Any owner of a fixed lens camera shoots only with the lens on the camera. Again - mythology. Is the "decisive moment" really profound? Or is it a catch-phrase?
Is it the "Jackson Pollock Effect"(tm). People say it's great, genius! A buzz is created. Everyone goes with the flow... You like it and think its "genius" before you even look at it.
Is it the "Jackson Pollock Effect"(tm). People say it's great, genius! A buzz is created. Everyone goes with the flow... You like it and think its "genius" before you even look at it.
CK Dexter Haven
Well-known
I've never understood the hoopla.
For a guy who spent a lifetime as a photographer, traveling the world with access to virtually everything/everyone, i can only find a handful of his images that do anything for me. I'm not criticizing him. But, i don't think his body of work is nearly as great as his acclaim. Not even close.
Personally, i think Doisneau, Erwitt, Boubat, Levitt, Duncan, Claxton, etc. were all better. There are guys on Flickr who are better. But, hey, that's life.
For a guy who spent a lifetime as a photographer, traveling the world with access to virtually everything/everyone, i can only find a handful of his images that do anything for me. I'm not criticizing him. But, i don't think his body of work is nearly as great as his acclaim. Not even close.
Personally, i think Doisneau, Erwitt, Boubat, Levitt, Duncan, Claxton, etc. were all better. There are guys on Flickr who are better. But, hey, that's life.
NickTrop
Veteran
Hey - I'm just asking "intellectually honest" questions. Get it? I didn't say I liked it or hated it. I'm not bashing HCB. Get what I'm saying here.
The questions I've posed would apply to all great artists. Be intellectually honest. Are you really moved by his work? How much is it a function of someones reputation of "genius" preceding them?
Citizen Kane - best movie EVER. Brilliant! Genius! Why Orsen Wells boy genius... blah, blah, blah. So you watch the film. It's okay. Seen better. But it's brilliant! Genius! Incredible! You're a lover of cine-E-mah! You're expected to say you Citizen Kane is brilliant, genius, incredible! Say it sucks? Like Terminator II better? You're kicked out of the Cinema Snob club. You'll be looked down upon. Thought an idiot...
Does this apply to HCB?
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NickTrop
Veteran
Congratulation. You are intellectually honest. You understand RFF-style photography. Welcome to the club.
NickTrop
Veteran
Are you making up your own mind? Or was your mind made up before you even saw his work?
steamer
Well-known
Like HCB fine, a great talent he took some mighty fine pictures, but not the greatest photographer to walk the face of the Earth. As for Zappa he was a genius and I will always enjoy his music, don't have to pretend.
I was close to taking a year off and wandering, but I got married instead and now my family would be in a world of hurt if I just took off. I know Gauguin and others have done that, but guess I missed the train this time. Could be worse, home is Tokyo and it is a good place to take photos.
I was close to taking a year off and wandering, but I got married instead and now my family would be in a world of hurt if I just took off. I know Gauguin and others have done that, but guess I missed the train this time. Could be worse, home is Tokyo and it is a good place to take photos.
Ororaro
Well-known
ROFL!!! Man, that's a tough one!
larmarv916
Well-known
Ok Nick...I think your asking some honest questions. But for what it's worth the one of the main issues that irks you and many people, and to me a great extent is that the "Hype" around these people like HCB, Adams, Weston, Brassai, not to metion the most over rated media hyped shooter..."Annie L." Is that these people for the most part have been the cash cow that has given many people a free ride in the gallery and publishing work of many years. Also let's do not forget the self proclaimed "Art / Photo Intelletcual's "
Also when photography was just getting on it's legs....which commerically only began with Magnum....Started by mostly HBC and Robert Capa.....was nothing more than a platform for cashing in and using photos to create hyoe for the publishing industry !!!
Follow the money......Adams basicly was the only photographer to benefit from the Sierra Club. Why well lets see he was president what...7 times. Do not forget Adams had a long commerical with Polaroid and Dr Land that did not put him into poverty. The Hype machine I think is real demon that is building up people all for the reason they are making lots of money for other people. It's hard for me to decide who is worse the Hype merchants or people enable them to keep pull this crap on the world.
No matter how you feal about anyone work.....at the end of the day. Most..Not all photogrpahers who are not trying to sell their "soul" to the devil for fame or money are really only trying to share a vision of something they find interesting or beautiful.
To many people want to go with the flow just so they can be accepted and in the end....on a creative level that is the kiss of death. Once you have a foundation pushing to make you legacy a profitable one there is no honest apperciation for your work. HCB more than anyone would be outright ashamed to have people worshiping his work. He was his own harshest critic.
Best Regards......Laurance
Also when photography was just getting on it's legs....which commerically only began with Magnum....Started by mostly HBC and Robert Capa.....was nothing more than a platform for cashing in and using photos to create hyoe for the publishing industry !!!
Follow the money......Adams basicly was the only photographer to benefit from the Sierra Club. Why well lets see he was president what...7 times. Do not forget Adams had a long commerical with Polaroid and Dr Land that did not put him into poverty. The Hype machine I think is real demon that is building up people all for the reason they are making lots of money for other people. It's hard for me to decide who is worse the Hype merchants or people enable them to keep pull this crap on the world.
No matter how you feal about anyone work.....at the end of the day. Most..Not all photogrpahers who are not trying to sell their "soul" to the devil for fame or money are really only trying to share a vision of something they find interesting or beautiful.
To many people want to go with the flow just so they can be accepted and in the end....on a creative level that is the kiss of death. Once you have a foundation pushing to make you legacy a profitable one there is no honest apperciation for your work. HCB more than anyone would be outright ashamed to have people worshiping his work. He was his own harshest critic.
Best Regards......Laurance
WoolenMammoth
Well-known
If you are an artist hard at work on your own trip how can you be bothered to really a) get particularly consumed by another artist's work but really b) bother to care for half an instant of what other people think of some other artist. I mean, really, who cares but beyond that, if you are out creating how can you have time...
I have the people that inspire me, hcb isnt on my list and looking at where and what he shot, I cant really relate to what he did. Maybe someday, after more life experience I will. France really isnt on my shortlist... But for now, who cares. The only thing I care less about than his work, precisely a billion times less, is what anyone else thinks about the guy, there is not enough time in the day to keep on top of the film that Im generating here, developing, scanning it and editing it, Im always behind, hundreds of rolls behind...
This board used to be relaxing to read. Perhaps my perspective is changing.
I will say that usually when I see a HCB photograph Im usually inspired to look at Willy Ronis. Which one is better? Who cares. really.
Lastly, if being rich had any impact on art, every idiot out there with a porsche and a noctilux would be the best photographer ever... Didnt HCB *work* for Magnum?
I have the people that inspire me, hcb isnt on my list and looking at where and what he shot, I cant really relate to what he did. Maybe someday, after more life experience I will. France really isnt on my shortlist... But for now, who cares. The only thing I care less about than his work, precisely a billion times less, is what anyone else thinks about the guy, there is not enough time in the day to keep on top of the film that Im generating here, developing, scanning it and editing it, Im always behind, hundreds of rolls behind...
This board used to be relaxing to read. Perhaps my perspective is changing.
I will say that usually when I see a HCB photograph Im usually inspired to look at Willy Ronis. Which one is better? Who cares. really.
Lastly, if being rich had any impact on art, every idiot out there with a porsche and a noctilux would be the best photographer ever... Didnt HCB *work* for Magnum?