Matus
Well-known
I think I have waited long enough to post this. I have recently search for a nice Contax T3 via the WTB classifieds here on this forum. Then I got a email from one new member named redcryaon that he has one. The guy was supposed to be from Canada and located during that time in England. We exchanged a few mails (I have asked for some description and photos which he did provide) and agreed on the sum of 450 euro (the camera was supposed to come with the filter holder and a UV filter).
However after I have payed with PayPal (and the payment has status "successful" from the PayPal) he contacted me after few days declaring some problem with paypal (credit card not matching the bank account). He said that he will reimburse the money within a week.
That was 2 weeks ago. I have sent him 2 or 3 emails since then, but he did not reply. I did filed a claim with PayPal, but I do not expect much from them. However I did add a detailed description when doing the payment, explicitly stating that insured shipping is to be used with the camera. So the seller should have a proof if he ever did send the camera. Anyhow - PayPal will not share any personal information (of course) so I will not be able to file a claim with police in his home country.
****
Botom line: I know I risked (I probably wanted to find a T3 before I go for vacation too much) and got burned. Lesson learned. Unfortunately I was just ion the process of adding a VISA card to my account as payment option so I will not get help from there either.
Just to let you know to be more careful than I was. I got a small Fuji Zoom Date f2.8 (Fuji Silvi) for few euro from eBay which seems to work fine (has 24-50/2.8-5.6 lens), but would have prefer the T3.
However after I have payed with PayPal (and the payment has status "successful" from the PayPal) he contacted me after few days declaring some problem with paypal (credit card not matching the bank account). He said that he will reimburse the money within a week.
That was 2 weeks ago. I have sent him 2 or 3 emails since then, but he did not reply. I did filed a claim with PayPal, but I do not expect much from them. However I did add a detailed description when doing the payment, explicitly stating that insured shipping is to be used with the camera. So the seller should have a proof if he ever did send the camera. Anyhow - PayPal will not share any personal information (of course) so I will not be able to file a claim with police in his home country.
****
Botom line: I know I risked (I probably wanted to find a T3 before I go for vacation too much) and got burned. Lesson learned. Unfortunately I was just ion the process of adding a VISA card to my account as payment option so I will not get help from there either.
Just to let you know to be more careful than I was. I got a small Fuji Zoom Date f2.8 (Fuji Silvi) for few euro from eBay which seems to work fine (has 24-50/2.8-5.6 lens), but would have prefer the T3.
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
Sorry to hear about what has taken place ... you seem to be taking it philosophically though!
As this forum grows the chance of this sort of thing happening increases sadly. I got burned for over $400.00 over at p.net a while ago with a Hassy lens ... and it didn't feel good!
As this forum grows the chance of this sort of thing happening increases sadly. I got burned for over $400.00 over at p.net a while ago with a Hassy lens ... and it didn't feel good!
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elshaneo
Panographer
Sorry to hear about your loss. Let's hope that Paypal will eventually help.
Nowadays since RFF is growing larger day by day, I guess that it would be wiser and much preferable to deal with established RFF members when we put up stuffs on the Classified Ads and vice versa.
Nowadays since RFF is growing larger day by day, I guess that it would be wiser and much preferable to deal with established RFF members when we put up stuffs on the Classified Ads and vice versa.
gliderbee
Well-known
You paid with Paypal; maybe they can help:
I bought a "perfect" Olympus SP a while ago (105 GBP, shipping included). When it arrived, the lightmer was dead and the only reason I bought that camera was precisely the (spot)lightmeter which is unique in fixed lens RF as far as I know. Otherwise, it's just one of the many RF's out there from that period.
I mailed the seller a few times but got no response.
Then I filed a complaint with Paypal explaining why the lightmeter was important to me, stating also that I would agree to leave things alone for a reimbursment of 100 GBP.
Paypal tried to contact the seller also without getting a response: they kept me up to date of every message that was sent.
After about 1 months (if memory serves me, I'm not sure, maybe shorter), Paypal announced that they would reimburse me 100 GBP, and after about 14 days, they did (that was July 3th of this year).
Only then, a few days later, suddenly, the seller reacted: he stated IN CAPITALS THAT I HAD TO REIMBURSE HIS MONEY RIGHT AWAY OR ELSE I WOULD HEAR FROM HIS LAWYER.
I didn't react. A few days later, another mail, stating to ship back the camera within 10 days or I would get a letter from his lawyer. I didn't react: he forgot to say "please": I mean: he just stated the camera was ok when it left him and was otherwise "SHOUTING" and threatening). He only "explained" "he was away from work". Until now, I haven't heard from him or his "lawyer" anymore.
Conclusion: file a complaint with Paypal.
Stefan.
I bought a "perfect" Olympus SP a while ago (105 GBP, shipping included). When it arrived, the lightmer was dead and the only reason I bought that camera was precisely the (spot)lightmeter which is unique in fixed lens RF as far as I know. Otherwise, it's just one of the many RF's out there from that period.
I mailed the seller a few times but got no response.
Then I filed a complaint with Paypal explaining why the lightmeter was important to me, stating also that I would agree to leave things alone for a reimbursment of 100 GBP.
Paypal tried to contact the seller also without getting a response: they kept me up to date of every message that was sent.
After about 1 months (if memory serves me, I'm not sure, maybe shorter), Paypal announced that they would reimburse me 100 GBP, and after about 14 days, they did (that was July 3th of this year).
Only then, a few days later, suddenly, the seller reacted: he stated IN CAPITALS THAT I HAD TO REIMBURSE HIS MONEY RIGHT AWAY OR ELSE I WOULD HEAR FROM HIS LAWYER.
I didn't react. A few days later, another mail, stating to ship back the camera within 10 days or I would get a letter from his lawyer. I didn't react: he forgot to say "please": I mean: he just stated the camera was ok when it left him and was otherwise "SHOUTING" and threatening). He only "explained" "he was away from work". Until now, I haven't heard from him or his "lawyer" anymore.
Conclusion: file a complaint with Paypal.
Stefan.
integrale
Happy Amateur
I second that.
PayPal refunded me all my money when a lens I purchased through eBay wasn't delivered and the seller didn't react.
The day after PayPal refunded me all the money, the lens arrived (in perfect condition); naturally, the lens was returned after the seller reimbursed the shipping costs.
So, in my very limited experience, PayPal's dispute resolution process works.
PayPal refunded me all my money when a lens I purchased through eBay wasn't delivered and the seller didn't react.
The day after PayPal refunded me all the money, the lens arrived (in perfect condition); naturally, the lens was returned after the seller reimbursed the shipping costs.
So, in my very limited experience, PayPal's dispute resolution process works.
LeicaFoReVer
Addicted to Rangefinders
you can get a reimbursement very easiliy by paypal. file a complained. There is no tracking number from the seller so you will 100% get your money back.
I hope you did not send it as personal payment??? In that case there is not way you can get the money back.
I hope you did not send it as personal payment??? In that case there is not way you can get the money back.
raid
Dad Photographer
These are good reminders as we get into sales online.
ray*j*gun
Veteran
I won't send paypal funds using the gift option anymore. I understand that is as big a risk as sending cash. It would take a lot for me to buy from an unestablished member without great references...
Matus
Well-known
Thank you guys. I did file a claim with PayPal. The seller got a date limit until yesterday to react. Keep in mind that this was not an eBay auction! Still - let's see what they stand will be. I am pretty much at their mercy - they are not obliged to do anything.
Yes - I do my best to take it a bit philosophically - getting angry will not help me anyhow. It is just something I can either accept and then leave it behind or get pissed off every time I think of it. I rather prefer to keep my blood pressure the way it is last 30 years
But it does takes a few more deep breaths to get there.
Anyhow - I will let you know what came out of it.
Concerning the new/old users - when you check a user list here you see that most users never made a single post. I am wondering whether it would make sense to automatically cancel the memberships if there were no posts since the subscription within certain time window (say 6 months or 1 year).
Yes - I do my best to take it a bit philosophically - getting angry will not help me anyhow. It is just something I can either accept and then leave it behind or get pissed off every time I think of it. I rather prefer to keep my blood pressure the way it is last 30 years
But it does takes a few more deep breaths to get there.Anyhow - I will let you know what came out of it.
Concerning the new/old users - when you check a user list here you see that most users never made a single post. I am wondering whether it would make sense to automatically cancel the memberships if there were no posts since the subscription within certain time window (say 6 months or 1 year).
Mcary
Well-known
Sorry to hear about what happened and of course a person should be carefully when purchasing something from someone who just joined, But why should the 99% of the non posting members who've never done anything wrong be punished?
Disaster_Area
Gadget Monger
Well... first off I would have been suspicious of ANYONE saying they're from one country but in another at the moment, I know there are legitimate cases of this and if it was an established member with feedback I probably wouldn't care, but you might have problems with paypal because last I checked they only guarantee items sent from the registered address on the paypal account. This is why I only deal with people who are where paypal says they should be.
coelacanth
Ride, dive, shoot.
Sorry to hear about the trouble. Paypal always acts in favor of the buyer side. As long as you followed their instructions like not using "gift" and specify the payment was for goods, they should get you the money back, ebay transaction or not. And for the future reference, I'd never use bank transfer or Paypal funds. Credit card is your final layer of protection.
If you are on the seller side, things get trickier. I always follow the protection requirements like trackable shipping, signature delivery for item $250 & up, etc, but I still don't trust Paypal would do much for me. But again, I'd make sure I follow every single step they require for seller protection, and I ask for references not only when I'm buying something but also when I'm the seller side.
Paul (sorry to hear your trouble), Keith and Shane's stories terrify me. That destroys the trust system we have here, and I hate the idea thieves hurting not only their direct victims but also the whole community. (hate them anyway in the very first place tho)
Paul & Shane, we dealt before and you know where I live.
If you are on the seller side, things get trickier. I always follow the protection requirements like trackable shipping, signature delivery for item $250 & up, etc, but I still don't trust Paypal would do much for me. But again, I'd make sure I follow every single step they require for seller protection, and I ask for references not only when I'm buying something but also when I'm the seller side.
Paul (sorry to hear your trouble), Keith and Shane's stories terrify me. That destroys the trust system we have here, and I hate the idea thieves hurting not only their direct victims but also the whole community. (hate them anyway in the very first place tho)
Paul & Shane, we dealt before and you know where I live.
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Frontman
Well-known
I have made lots of online purchases (and many more sales) using paypal, and, other than an occasional delay in funds transfers, I haven't had any problems.
I have come across a few scam artists, but they are rather easy to spot. Don't let GAS overcome common sense! Items which are not in the same country as the seller, or buyers who are not in the same country that they want the item shipped to are deal-stoppers.
Always ship, or request shipping, by express or priority mail, as these shipping methods are traceable, and the receiver must sign for the item. And usually these shipping methods include a certain amount of insurance.
Paypal will eventually get your money back to you, but keep in mind that even shipping by priority mail can be delayed by customs. I've had items arrive weeks after they were expected, and it's kind of embarrassing to get your claim funded and then receive the item the following day.
Another thing to remember is that in certain countries postmen are not honest, I once knew a UPS sorter who was arrested after years of stealing packages (mostly firearms). If your buyer says he never received an item, it's possible he's telling the truth. Ship using a traceable method, and make sure valuable items are insured!
I have come across a few scam artists, but they are rather easy to spot. Don't let GAS overcome common sense! Items which are not in the same country as the seller, or buyers who are not in the same country that they want the item shipped to are deal-stoppers.
Always ship, or request shipping, by express or priority mail, as these shipping methods are traceable, and the receiver must sign for the item. And usually these shipping methods include a certain amount of insurance.
Paypal will eventually get your money back to you, but keep in mind that even shipping by priority mail can be delayed by customs. I've had items arrive weeks after they were expected, and it's kind of embarrassing to get your claim funded and then receive the item the following day.
Another thing to remember is that in certain countries postmen are not honest, I once knew a UPS sorter who was arrested after years of stealing packages (mostly firearms). If your buyer says he never received an item, it's possible he's telling the truth. Ship using a traceable method, and make sure valuable items are insured!
Steve M.
Veteran
To be honest, I'm surprised this doesn't happen more often than it does. There seems to be no legal risk to these sellers that scam people, which is incredible.
The only hard rules I have are: avoiding sellers w/ 0 posts, and sellers that have just joined the forum. I know there are perfectly honest people that just joined and have no posts, but it's a little odd that suddenly they have this expensive gear for sale. So they obviously joined just to sell something. If someone hasn't joined the forum because of their interest in photography, if they haven't been w/ the forum a reasonable length of time and shown a bit of their character and personality through their written posts, then they're someone I don't want any business dealings with. There's no 100% way to know whether someone's honest or a crook, obviously, but it's something.
Now, I gotta go look at the classifieds!
The only hard rules I have are: avoiding sellers w/ 0 posts, and sellers that have just joined the forum. I know there are perfectly honest people that just joined and have no posts, but it's a little odd that suddenly they have this expensive gear for sale. So they obviously joined just to sell something. If someone hasn't joined the forum because of their interest in photography, if they haven't been w/ the forum a reasonable length of time and shown a bit of their character and personality through their written posts, then they're someone I don't want any business dealings with. There's no 100% way to know whether someone's honest or a crook, obviously, but it's something.
Now, I gotta go look at the classifieds!
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jky
Well-known
...sad to hear. Hope you get your money back.
It's absolutely terrible to get scammed (I've been burned for $800) not just because of the $ you lost, but because of the thought that somebody was out to maliciously screw you over.
It's absolutely terrible to get scammed (I've been burned for $800) not just because of the $ you lost, but because of the thought that somebody was out to maliciously screw you over.
menos
Veteran
This really puts me off big time!
I have stopped counting the times, I have been in trouble with bank, eBay, Paypal, sellers, etc, just for the simple fact, that I am a German citizen, living already a few years in China.
My bank accounts have been blocked several times, my ebay account is still blocked as I write this, Paypal has rejected payments, I advised online, sellers did not give feedback to paypal, after receiving a request of confirming an official order from me - all because of one thing:
Ordinary people, often simply can't understand, that there exist actually people, who live and work long term in another country, than there home country.
My ebay history is absolutely flawless, I have a 100% rating with a several years membership and many transactions.
I always pay in immediately after placing orders, ship as quick as possible and deal with people transparently.
I am sorry for the OP for loosing in this deal and wish Paypal resolves the issue.
Matus
Well-known
!!! GOOD NEWS !!!
I just got a message from PayPal that they have looked into the case and will now reimburse the full amount to my PayPal account within next few days. As a possible weak place (as I understood) could be that the seller does not have the funds, so I have to wait and see. But it sounds good to me
Thank you for your kind and wise words. Please do not start the fight - I know it is a hot topic to discuss possibly suspicious sellers. A clever person can outsmart even a careful buyer (not my case).
I also got an message from one other rff member that he got an offer from the say guy for a Leica M2. He was also told that he (Jay) comes form Canada and is currently in London. The images of the Leica offered are HERE.
The deal for me would have been that for the shipping from London I would not have to pay import duties (19% + 7%). I would have not posted this post this soon, but the seller never explicitly stated that he shipped the camera. Quite the opposite - he stated he will refund my payment what did not happen within 2 weeks.
Should the seller contact me I will let you know, though I do not expect it anymore.
I will remember this case for a long time indeed.
I just got a message from PayPal that they have looked into the case and will now reimburse the full amount to my PayPal account within next few days. As a possible weak place (as I understood) could be that the seller does not have the funds, so I have to wait and see. But it sounds good to me
Thank you for your kind and wise words. Please do not start the fight - I know it is a hot topic to discuss possibly suspicious sellers. A clever person can outsmart even a careful buyer (not my case
).I also got an message from one other rff member that he got an offer from the say guy for a Leica M2. He was also told that he (Jay) comes form Canada and is currently in London. The images of the Leica offered are HERE.
The deal for me would have been that for the shipping from London I would not have to pay import duties (19% + 7%). I would have not posted this post this soon, but the seller never explicitly stated that he shipped the camera. Quite the opposite - he stated he will refund my payment what did not happen within 2 weeks.
Should the seller contact me I will let you know, though I do not expect it anymore.
I will remember this case for a long time indeed.
nikku
Well-known
I sold an OM-1 and 55/1.2 through ebay to a buyer in Russia. I got the package insured and sent it off Int'l Priority, but after a month and a half it still hadn't arrived. Tracking showed that it had been processed at the international shipping facility, but that was it. Paypal reimbursed the buyer after they filed a claim, I called USPS to make an insurance claim, and the package magically reappeared in the system and was finally shipped over to Russia, where it cleared Russian Customs without delay.
So as a seller, I'd say do not hesitate to call USPS to make an insurance claim, and as a buyer, remember, delays do happen.
So as a seller, I'd say do not hesitate to call USPS to make an insurance claim, and as a buyer, remember, delays do happen.
t.s.k.
Hooked on philm
That is good news!
Kudos to PP for doing the right thing.
On a side note, when the OP posted the uname "jayleman", I read it as jailman instead of jay leman.
BTW, I never trust USPS for anything except netflix and junk mail.
Kudos to PP for doing the right thing.
On a side note, when the OP posted the uname "jayleman", I read it as jailman instead of jay leman.
BTW, I never trust USPS for anything except netflix and junk mail.
rickp
Well-known
am i correct in thinking that the feedback process in RFF is rarely used? a lot of the regulars post positive comments when a new item comes up for sale, such as "i've dealt with joe before and he is a reliable seller", which is very useful. others mention their ebay or other user names and feedback ratings, but it's all a bit informal. should we all try harder to request and give feedback when a sale has worked properly??
thanks
rick
thanks
rick