Laviolette
Established
Not a planned purchase, but when our local university placed an ad about old cameras for sale, I went for a quick look. I saw a black paint M4 among the other stuff and not too sure of the value, I made an offer on it and they accepted. In my foolishness, I was assuming that the camera was worth around 1000$ (I offered 500$ since they were selling as-is), so I was quite surprised to see the asking price that similar cameras have online, when you can have an M6 for less. Can someone enlighten me on the subject?
The camera show external wear, but it is working. Slow shutter speeds are erratic and the rangefinder needs to be aligned, I think (the rangefinder image is a tad below the normal image in the viewfinder when I push the cam to align them). I already contacted Youxin Ye for a CLA and I should send him the camera next week.
I don't have enough money at the moment to buy a lens, so I will just use my Jupiter 8 for now. Can someone recommend me a 35mm lens in the 500 - 700 $ range ? I would prefer a M mount lens and it doesn't need to be that fast (f2 is enough), but I would prefer a higher contrast lens. I have heard good things about the Zeiss 35mm f2, but are they more than 700$ used? Another option I saw was the 40mm Rokkor (being a Minolta fan!), and I was wondering how was framing a 40mm lens with a 35mm frame.
Many thanks everyone for your time,
A
P.S. Pardon my poor english grammar skills.
The camera show external wear, but it is working. Slow shutter speeds are erratic and the rangefinder needs to be aligned, I think (the rangefinder image is a tad below the normal image in the viewfinder when I push the cam to align them). I already contacted Youxin Ye for a CLA and I should send him the camera next week.
I don't have enough money at the moment to buy a lens, so I will just use my Jupiter 8 for now. Can someone recommend me a 35mm lens in the 500 - 700 $ range ? I would prefer a M mount lens and it doesn't need to be that fast (f2 is enough), but I would prefer a higher contrast lens. I have heard good things about the Zeiss 35mm f2, but are they more than 700$ used? Another option I saw was the 40mm Rokkor (being a Minolta fan!), and I was wondering how was framing a 40mm lens with a 35mm frame.
Many thanks everyone for your time,
A
P.S. Pardon my poor english grammar skills.
Attachments
Sylvester
Well-known
Lucky you, M4 for 500$... sad it's not working "out of the box".
I shoot the Voigtlander 35 1.4 Single Coated version. You can always add contrast after scanning or when wet printing, but you can't really reduce that much contrast. On the other side, this little gem is VERY sharp (to my eye). Well, sharp enough. It renders like an old 35 Summilux.
It is right in your price range NEW. And you can shoot in really low light with it. 1.4 is very useful, and the bokeh is beautiful.
You can go in my flickr gallery flickr.com/osilly , you'll find some shots I took with it.
I hope you'll have fun with your new to you Leica!
I shoot the Voigtlander 35 1.4 Single Coated version. You can always add contrast after scanning or when wet printing, but you can't really reduce that much contrast. On the other side, this little gem is VERY sharp (to my eye). Well, sharp enough. It renders like an old 35 Summilux.
It is right in your price range NEW. And you can shoot in really low light with it. 1.4 is very useful, and the bokeh is beautiful.
You can go in my flickr gallery flickr.com/osilly , you'll find some shots I took with it.
I hope you'll have fun with your new to you Leica!
jordanstarr
J.R.Starr
If you can live with slow shutter speeds being erratic (I generally only find myself shooting 1/30 - 1/500 myself) and a slightly off vertical alignment (horizontal alignment will screw up your range, but vertical is only annoying at worst -you'll still get in-focus images as long as you get used to it)...then you'll be alright without a CLA if you're on a budget. I deal with a few quirks similar to yours and have for years without throwing money at it even though right now, I could send it in for $300 and have it fixed perfect.
As for a cheap lens, the 40mm summicron is the bargain of the century in my opinion if you can deal with that focal length. I only shoot 28mm and 35mm, nothing wider or longer, so I wouldn't like it. However, if you compare to the 35mm summicron and don't mind the extra throw, it's less than half the price.
As for the framelines. I think you'll find with a rangefinder, that framelines are guides. if you want precision you should have bought an SLR. Rangefinders are for that quick "get the moment" shot, but are at least close enough to be as accurate as you want to be if you have the time to measure up the lines and visualize the parallax.
As for a cheap lens, the 40mm summicron is the bargain of the century in my opinion if you can deal with that focal length. I only shoot 28mm and 35mm, nothing wider or longer, so I wouldn't like it. However, if you compare to the 35mm summicron and don't mind the extra throw, it's less than half the price.
As for the framelines. I think you'll find with a rangefinder, that framelines are guides. if you want precision you should have bought an SLR. Rangefinders are for that quick "get the moment" shot, but are at least close enough to be as accurate as you want to be if you have the time to measure up the lines and visualize the parallax.
boomguy57
Well-known
You ought to take a look at the Zeiss C-Biogon 35/2.8; that's a hell of a lens if you can live with f/2.8 as your max aperture. If not, try the CV 35/1.4 as has been noted.
Phil_F_NM
Camera hacker
I'm green with envy of your BP M4 purchase!
Don't discount some of the older lenses out there, the 35mm Nikkors and Canons. They won't be very high contrast wide open but hardly anything for a rangefinder is unless it's super new. The Canon 35mm f/1.8 and f/2 are excellent lenses.
The Nikkor 3.5cm f/1.8 is one of the best 35mm's ever made.
There are also the Konica offerings which are fantastic and a bit higher in contrast as well.
One you may consider that is just a bit slower than f/2 is the Voigtlander 35mm f/2.5. It's tiny, light, well built and delivers excellent images.
The Voigtlander 35mm f/1.7 is also a great performer if you can find one in good condition. They are pretty inexpensive but have a bit of a reputation for not being as well built as they could have been. The aperture blades of mine fell out of their grooves while on a trip years ago and I had to do a repair of the somewhat complicated mechanism with a pocketknife and a jeweler's screwdriver.
If you could live with f/2.8 you would be hard pressed to find a better image maker (for the price) than a Jupiter-12. Some of the older chromed lenses are true Zeiss Biogons while even the newer ones can deliver excellent photos if you get a good sample or have one straight from the FSU CLA'd.
Enjoy that gorgeous camera!
Phil Forrest
Don't discount some of the older lenses out there, the 35mm Nikkors and Canons. They won't be very high contrast wide open but hardly anything for a rangefinder is unless it's super new. The Canon 35mm f/1.8 and f/2 are excellent lenses.
The Nikkor 3.5cm f/1.8 is one of the best 35mm's ever made.
There are also the Konica offerings which are fantastic and a bit higher in contrast as well.
One you may consider that is just a bit slower than f/2 is the Voigtlander 35mm f/2.5. It's tiny, light, well built and delivers excellent images.
The Voigtlander 35mm f/1.7 is also a great performer if you can find one in good condition. They are pretty inexpensive but have a bit of a reputation for not being as well built as they could have been. The aperture blades of mine fell out of their grooves while on a trip years ago and I had to do a repair of the somewhat complicated mechanism with a pocketknife and a jeweler's screwdriver.
If you could live with f/2.8 you would be hard pressed to find a better image maker (for the price) than a Jupiter-12. Some of the older chromed lenses are true Zeiss Biogons while even the newer ones can deliver excellent photos if you get a good sample or have one straight from the FSU CLA'd.
Enjoy that gorgeous camera!
Phil Forrest
maddoc
... likes film again.
I use and like the Cosina Color-Skopar 35/2.5 PII (M-mount) and the 40/2.0 M-Rokkor (CLE) version. Both excellent lenses, the Color-Skopar shows a little higher contrast (more like the 35/2.0 ASPH) while the 40/2.0 M-Rokkor is more like the pre-ASPH 35/2.0 Summicron. Both excellent lenses for the money.
If your BP M4 works as it is I would use it for some time at first and then decide about the CLA (... and whom to send it for a CLA) A BP M4 with original L-seal has some value ....
If your BP M4 works as it is I would use it for some time at first and then decide about the CLA (... and whom to send it for a CLA) A BP M4 with original L-seal has some value ....
Godfrey
somewhat colored
Lovely! Get it serviced and you'll have a great body to rely on.
You cannot buy a better new lens than the Voigtlander Color Skopar 35mm f/2.5 P (or even a used lens) for the $409 it costs. Small, light, beautiful image quality, and very nicely made. I use it on my M4-2, M9 and GXR.
Beyond that, look for the Voigtländer Nokton 35 or 40mm f/1.4, a Summicron-C 40/2, or M-Rokkor 40/2. All of those are excellent performers in your price range. I've had all of the 40s and use the Nokton 40/1.4 and M-Rokker 40/2 gen II on my GXR, CL and M9.
G
You cannot buy a better new lens than the Voigtlander Color Skopar 35mm f/2.5 P (or even a used lens) for the $409 it costs. Small, light, beautiful image quality, and very nicely made. I use it on my M4-2, M9 and GXR.
Beyond that, look for the Voigtländer Nokton 35 or 40mm f/1.4, a Summicron-C 40/2, or M-Rokkor 40/2. All of those are excellent performers in your price range. I've had all of the 40s and use the Nokton 40/1.4 and M-Rokker 40/2 gen II on my GXR, CL and M9.
G
Range-rover
Veteran
That's a great camera you got there and in black no less sweet, the M4 is my
favorite Leica's, get yourself a Zeiss or Voighlander lens you'd be all set.
Range
favorite Leica's, get yourself a Zeiss or Voighlander lens you'd be all set.
Range
Laviolette
Established
Thanks for the replies so far! This forum is such a nice place.
I will look into the lens suggestions you made, especially the lens I never heard about, like the Nikkors, Konicas and the Canons. The lens doesn't have to be too fast because I already have a very nice 50mm 1.4 MC Rokkor for my XD-11, that I love very much.
As for the CLA, I agree that it might be a good idea to wait and use the camera for now. The slower shutter speeds are very random, 1s for example will last about 1.5 seconds the first time then something like 1/30 the next. 1/15 to 1/60 look and sound very similar. 1/125 and higher seems progressively faster, but I have no idea how precise they are.
The L seal is still intact, so I will assume the camera never received a CLA?
I will look into the lens suggestions you made, especially the lens I never heard about, like the Nikkors, Konicas and the Canons. The lens doesn't have to be too fast because I already have a very nice 50mm 1.4 MC Rokkor for my XD-11, that I love very much.
As for the CLA, I agree that it might be a good idea to wait and use the camera for now. The slower shutter speeds are very random, 1s for example will last about 1.5 seconds the first time then something like 1/30 the next. 1/15 to 1/60 look and sound very similar. 1/125 and higher seems progressively faster, but I have no idea how precise they are.
The L seal is still intact, so I will assume the camera never received a CLA?
kknox
kknox
CV 40 1.4 or CV 35, great lens used $400-500. Congrats on the M4 what a great deal you got.
Classique
Well-known
Congrats on a great deal!
If you are looking for high contrast 35mm, either CV35mm 1.4 MC or even W-nikkor 35mm 2.5 will be a good option for under 500. Ultron would be a good contender also.
Ultron and Noton have very modern rendering - for slower films, it will almost look like digital image. Nikkor has somewhat "older" but still very modern looking for an old lens (has that swirly bokeh close up wide open). However, the nikkor is very sharp and contrast is surprisingly high.
Best looker will be Nokton with custom rectangular hood (I use it like that on M4-2 which is black like your M4) and looks gorgeous.
If you are looking for high contrast 35mm, either CV35mm 1.4 MC or even W-nikkor 35mm 2.5 will be a good option for under 500. Ultron would be a good contender also.
Ultron and Noton have very modern rendering - for slower films, it will almost look like digital image. Nikkor has somewhat "older" but still very modern looking for an old lens (has that swirly bokeh close up wide open). However, the nikkor is very sharp and contrast is surprisingly high.
Best looker will be Nokton with custom rectangular hood (I use it like that on M4-2 which is black like your M4) and looks gorgeous.
Harry Lime
Practitioner
Errr, no.
If the slow speeds are off then this camera is in a severe need of a CLA and it should go in for service. This is a very nice black paint camera. Relatively rare, certainly not cheap at a normal dealer, and it deserves to be treated with some respect and care.
Take a look at the Voigtlander lenses. These are modern lenses with good contrast and sharpness. They are relatively cheap and range from very, very good to outstanding in performance. Voigtlander made a 1.4/35, 1.7/35 and others. I have a few Voigtlander lenses and they are at least as good as a lot of the Dr. Mandler era Leica glass.
Look here:
http://cameraquest.com/
http://www.voigtlaender.de/cms/voigtlaender/voigtlaender_cms.nsf/id/pa_home_e.html
My advice? Get the Voigtlander 35 and spend the rest of the money getting the camera serviced by Youxin Ye. That way you get a good lens and your camera will be taken care of.
If this was an M6 or newer camera I would say give the 2/40 Summicron a try. The 35mm framelines in the M6 and newer cameras are closer to a 40, than a 35.
The framelines in the M2/M4/M5 are pretty much dead on for framing the 35mm. So, go for the 35.
Good luck and congratulations. That is a very special camera.
Harry Lime
Practitioner
If the seal is intact then this camera may have not been serviced since it left the factory in the 1960's. That's a long time ago.
If the slow speeds are dragging, then it means that the lubricants have completely dried up and have turned in to glue. Back in the 1960's Leica still used organic lubricants and when they break down they become corrosive and will start to attack the metal. Dried up lubricants also place a lot of stress on the internal components and obviously the shutter speeds will be off. My guess is that all speeds are off, even if the fast ones sound ok.. The Leica shutter is very reliable, IF it is taken care of. If it is not taken care of it will break like any other mechanical device. Would you drive your car without oil in the engine?
This is a very, very nice and desirable camera. Normally they sell for at least $2000, often more. You are very lucky to have it and certainly for the price you paid. Do the right thing and send it to Youxin.
Harry Lime
Practitioner
In Canada you can also send it to Kindermann. Gerry is working on my M2 right now.
http://www.kindermann.ca/
Youxin is good and cheap, just make sure he's not more expensive than Gerry in Canada, once you add up shipping etc.
http://www.kindermann.ca/
Youxin is good and cheap, just make sure he's not more expensive than Gerry in Canada, once you add up shipping etc.
funkydog
Well-known
I'd sell it for big monee and then buy a fully functional newer M body and a Voigtlander lens. Let the collectors and lovers of brassy cameras pay for the repairs on this one.
Poor struggling student?
If tight on funds, I agree with this ^
could sell the black M4, and from the proceeds you could buy an M6 with lens and still have a chunk of change for film etc.
seakayaker1
Well-known
Congratulations on picking up the M4!
You may want to consider an older LTM lens and use a LTM to M adaptor
M6TTL ~ Ernst Leitz GmbH Wetzler 3.5cm f3.5 (1953)
M6TTL ~ Ernst Leitz Wetzler Summitar 5cm f/2 (1951)
Both lens with adaptors ran me about $700.00.
Both lens are from the 50's and I have also picked up a 90/4 and 135/4.5 from the same 50's as well and can be an inexpensive find.
. . . . . just another option.
Good luck with your decision.
You may want to consider an older LTM lens and use a LTM to M adaptor
M6TTL ~ Ernst Leitz GmbH Wetzler 3.5cm f3.5 (1953)
M6TTL ~ Ernst Leitz Wetzler Summitar 5cm f/2 (1951)
Both lens with adaptors ran me about $700.00.
Both lens are from the 50's and I have also picked up a 90/4 and 135/4.5 from the same 50's as well and can be an inexpensive find.
. . . . . just another option.
Good luck with your decision.
philipus
ʎɐpɹəʇɥƃı&
I used the Skopar 35 II for a trip to Australia and was generally very happy with the results. It gives a modern rendering, imho. It is a also tiny lens and the build quality is similar to the Summarit line imho (it falls short of the premium M lenses, imho - nevertheless it is really image quality that counts and the Skopar has a lot of it). It has a nice vented metal hood which is usually sold separately. Looks cool and works well.
The Summitar, while 5cm, is an excellent lens. I use my 1950 coated 10-blade with my BP M4 and get great results. There are loads around and it's easy to find copies in very good condition for little money. If you're going the 5cm route there are lots of options.
Another (also slow) lens you could consider is the 3,5cm Summaron. Classical rendering in a beautiful gem-like package. But slower than f2 of course.
Now, as for the camera - first of all congrats on finding a black paint M4 for, well, nothing. That's something to tell the grandchildren about. I found my BP for a bit more but it was in better condition; still it was a steal considering what they sell for at dealers. While mine had perfect speeds; rather, the RF needed alignment and the top plate was quite dinged, too.
So I agree with Harry Lime that you should treat this camera the way it deserves by giving it a proper service. Though it is worn and well-used, the BP M4 is a rare and quite special M. Then, when it's been serviced, use it all you can for the next several decades. So, in short, care for it today and it'll care for your photos for years to come. That's what I did with mine and now it ticks along as were it just off the manufacturing line at Wetzlar.
Edit:
About selling it and buying another M. Sure, after service - provided it was a good service and the camera returns in top condition mechanically and optically - you could likely sell it for about 2000 Euros or whatever the equivalent would be in Dollars. There are a few BP M4s in "original condition" at European dealers at the moment for about this. So if you need the money, that's definitely an option. There may also be members of this forum who are looking for BP M4s and would be eager to buy it from you.
In your shoes, however, I would keep the camera. You paid so little for it and even with the added costs for the service you will end up with a classic M for pretty much what an M6 would sell for.
On the issue of black paint. One can have whatever opinion one wants about black paint and brass. I have seen plenty of opinions at various fora, including this, to the effect that those who like such cameras are posers or wannabe Jim Marshalls. Personally I prefer black paint to other finishes simply because I like it. I don't care for black chrome the slightest because it wears, well, uglyly. Chrome is nice, and I have used chrome Ms in the past, but I prefer the more stealthy look of black. To each their own etc. Don't let other people's opinions affect your choice.
Good luck with your decision, André
Philip
The Summitar, while 5cm, is an excellent lens. I use my 1950 coated 10-blade with my BP M4 and get great results. There are loads around and it's easy to find copies in very good condition for little money. If you're going the 5cm route there are lots of options.
Another (also slow) lens you could consider is the 3,5cm Summaron. Classical rendering in a beautiful gem-like package. But slower than f2 of course.
Now, as for the camera - first of all congrats on finding a black paint M4 for, well, nothing. That's something to tell the grandchildren about. I found my BP for a bit more but it was in better condition; still it was a steal considering what they sell for at dealers. While mine had perfect speeds; rather, the RF needed alignment and the top plate was quite dinged, too.
So I agree with Harry Lime that you should treat this camera the way it deserves by giving it a proper service. Though it is worn and well-used, the BP M4 is a rare and quite special M. Then, when it's been serviced, use it all you can for the next several decades. So, in short, care for it today and it'll care for your photos for years to come. That's what I did with mine and now it ticks along as were it just off the manufacturing line at Wetzlar.
Edit:
About selling it and buying another M. Sure, after service - provided it was a good service and the camera returns in top condition mechanically and optically - you could likely sell it for about 2000 Euros or whatever the equivalent would be in Dollars. There are a few BP M4s in "original condition" at European dealers at the moment for about this. So if you need the money, that's definitely an option. There may also be members of this forum who are looking for BP M4s and would be eager to buy it from you.
In your shoes, however, I would keep the camera. You paid so little for it and even with the added costs for the service you will end up with a classic M for pretty much what an M6 would sell for.
On the issue of black paint. One can have whatever opinion one wants about black paint and brass. I have seen plenty of opinions at various fora, including this, to the effect that those who like such cameras are posers or wannabe Jim Marshalls. Personally I prefer black paint to other finishes simply because I like it. I don't care for black chrome the slightest because it wears, well, uglyly. Chrome is nice, and I have used chrome Ms in the past, but I prefer the more stealthy look of black. To each their own etc. Don't let other people's opinions affect your choice.
Good luck with your decision, André
Philip
Richard G
Veteran
Congratulations. I agree with getting it serviced. Everything will work better.
As for the vertical adjustment, as a separate discussion, it is dead easy M2-M5. Leave the lens on, or body cap, and unscrew the chrome screw on the front face of the top plate. It has very little depth and could easily tumble inside the camera if nothing is mounted. A very slight turn of the screw within will fix the vertical alignment.
As for the vertical adjustment, as a separate discussion, it is dead easy M2-M5. Leave the lens on, or body cap, and unscrew the chrome screw on the front face of the top plate. It has very little depth and could easily tumble inside the camera if nothing is mounted. A very slight turn of the screw within will fix the vertical alignment.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Another vote for the 35/2.5 Color-Skopar. Or the 35/1.7 Ultron: I don't know what they go for now.
Oh: and I'd stick with the BP camera. It's pretty; it's unusual; it works. Why sell it and buy something boring? I sold my BP M3 because it was an M3, not because I could buy something newer and 'better' with the money.
Cheers,
R.
Oh: and I'd stick with the BP camera. It's pretty; it's unusual; it works. Why sell it and buy something boring? I sold my BP M3 because it was an M3, not because I could buy something newer and 'better' with the money.
Cheers,
R.