FallisPhoto
Veteran
Anyone here have any experience with a Weltar lens? I have the opportunity to get a Welta Perle. It's pretty beat up (okay, it's a mess, and will take some doing to fix, but I kind of like doing that sort of thing). The thing is, it has a Weltar lens and (other than that it exists) there doesn't seem to be any info on Weltars on the internet. Is this a decent lens? Is it a three element triplet, a four element Tessar, or a six element Heliar? All the Weltas I've had before this had either Schneider or Zeiss lenses.
Muggins
Junk magnet
Forum member chippy has a Welta catalogue he picked up - that might tell you something?
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/member.php?u=21689
If you can get any info out of him, I'd love to hear more about the Perle - unfortunately mine has a Meyer-Goerlitz Trioplan, which doesn't help you.
(lucky beggar also has a Superfekta - which can't be far from the acme of nutty cameras).
Adrian
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/member.php?u=21689
If you can get any info out of him, I'd love to hear more about the Perle - unfortunately mine has a Meyer-Goerlitz Trioplan, which doesn't help you.
(lucky beggar also has a Superfekta - which can't be far from the acme of nutty cameras).
Adrian
FallisPhoto
Veteran
Thank you. I've sent him a private message and am waiting for a response.
That is weird, but actually, if it comes to sheer insanity, my vote for the acme of nutty cameras would go to this:
I'd vote for this one mostly because I can't think of anywhere you could use it in public and not risk being shot. I dare you to take it to Washington DC.
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Muggins
Junk magnet
You win - and not just because you are pointing that thing at me!
Adrian
(good luck with the hunt, by the way!)
FallisPhoto
Veteran
You win - and not just because you are pointing that thing at me!
Adrian
(good luck with the hunt, by the way!)
Even knowing it is a camera I would be very nervous if it were pointed at me.
FallisPhoto
Veteran
Okay, I searched for Welta Perle, Welta Weltar, Weltar lens, Weltar camera and etcetera. Finally, I did a search for just plain old Weltar. After going through about a thousand hits on a google search for Weltar, most of which were because of some guy who uses it as his screen name, and which were unrelated to cameras, I finally found a page that someone posted saying it is a triplet. Guess where it was posted. Yep, it was on RFF. Unfortunately, it was so old that it doesn't show up on the search engine. Google had it cached though. It is right near the bottom of this thread: http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:t0icJ9oVygAJ:www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-38457.html+weltar&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=55&gl=us I guess this means I shouldn't spend more than $20 on it. Still, I am pretty sure I can have it looking like new in fairly short order.
chippy
foo was here
Hi there Fallis,
thanks for the PM, i probably would of missed this otherwise.
(edit; i posted this before i saw your last post, but it all seems to fit the same)
i have a couple of cameras or more with the weltar lens, a perle,weltix, a welta sport for example. but just now having quick look at them (the early 1930-34, the lens doesn't appear much i'm affraid (particularly compared to the others you mention). certainly not a lost and forgotten quality lens. at a quick glance it appears it has an element in front of the shutter (possible 2 peices glued together but not certain) and another behind the shutter. its my feeling this lens was a lower offering from Welta. although i havnt put film through one of these yet or dismantled a lens, so it may turn out to better than expected.
what year (or do you have a picture so i can identfy it for you) is the Perle you looking at. the later weltar lenses look a much higher quality than the earlier ones and are definately a 3 lens anastigmat, but by 1938 were offered usualy only on Welta's basic Symbol model camera as well a the 35mm Weltix.
i have pretty much every Perle from 1930 -1939. they are an interesting camera from Welta in as much they provided the inspiration to delvelop the Weltax (which saw the end of the Perle being produced) and the Weltur.
from its introduction it was no doubt one of Welta hall mark cameras. they were available with virtualy every type of lens/shutter at one time or another. and the focusing type changed over the years as well. i have them with standard front cell focusing or radial as well as helical (helical is cool! like what is used in TLR's, it must of cost them a fortune to produce that!) where the whole lens moves.
i do not know at this point whether Welta made the lenses themselves (they may well have) or whether they came from Rodenstock and simply re-labled. Welta seem to have had buisness relationships with a few other makers of camera and lenses including leitz, zeiss, beier and rodenstock.
Rodenstock never actualy made there own cameras (even though there are many around with their name on them) but many of their cameras used Welta bodies with their own lenses atatched. which just makes me wonder that perhaps Welta did the same in reverse with Rodenstock lenses!? only a guess at this point tho..i have some more literature arriving soon which may help some..i hope!
thanks for the PM, i probably would of missed this otherwise.
(edit; i posted this before i saw your last post, but it all seems to fit the same)
i have a couple of cameras or more with the weltar lens, a perle,weltix, a welta sport for example. but just now having quick look at them (the early 1930-34, the lens doesn't appear much i'm affraid (particularly compared to the others you mention). certainly not a lost and forgotten quality lens. at a quick glance it appears it has an element in front of the shutter (possible 2 peices glued together but not certain) and another behind the shutter. its my feeling this lens was a lower offering from Welta. although i havnt put film through one of these yet or dismantled a lens, so it may turn out to better than expected.
what year (or do you have a picture so i can identfy it for you) is the Perle you looking at. the later weltar lenses look a much higher quality than the earlier ones and are definately a 3 lens anastigmat, but by 1938 were offered usualy only on Welta's basic Symbol model camera as well a the 35mm Weltix.
i have pretty much every Perle from 1930 -1939. they are an interesting camera from Welta in as much they provided the inspiration to delvelop the Weltax (which saw the end of the Perle being produced) and the Weltur.
from its introduction it was no doubt one of Welta hall mark cameras. they were available with virtualy every type of lens/shutter at one time or another. and the focusing type changed over the years as well. i have them with standard front cell focusing or radial as well as helical (helical is cool! like what is used in TLR's, it must of cost them a fortune to produce that!) where the whole lens moves.
i do not know at this point whether Welta made the lenses themselves (they may well have) or whether they came from Rodenstock and simply re-labled. Welta seem to have had buisness relationships with a few other makers of camera and lenses including leitz, zeiss, beier and rodenstock.
Rodenstock never actualy made there own cameras (even though there are many around with their name on them) but many of their cameras used Welta bodies with their own lenses atatched. which just makes me wonder that perhaps Welta did the same in reverse with Rodenstock lenses!? only a guess at this point tho..i have some more literature arriving soon which may help some..i hope!
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chippy
foo was here
actualy FalisPhoto in that thread you dug up he has mis-spelled the Welta name he was reffering to by adding on the 'r' to end leading you to think he was referring to the lens when he was really just reffering to the Welta (company/brand) name and Garant (camera model) it is just a coincidence that the answer he received stated it was a triplet lens because in fact the Garant was offered with a Trioplan, Trinar and Cassar lenses,,all 3 element lenses.
the Garant camera (as mentioned in that thread) was never available with the Weltar lens
the Garant camera (as mentioned in that thread) was never available with the Weltar lens
FallisPhoto
Veteran
This is the Perle I am looking at, with an eye for restoration (obviously it isn't worth much at all in its current condition):
It is, at very least, going to need all the rust removed, a CLA, new paint on the front door, and new leather. I may have to take the chrome off of the frame and go to black paint there too, since it seems the chrome is blistered off in several places that have since rusted. At least this one doesn't have actual pits eaten into the aluminum knobs, like my Welti did. I tried to figure out a way to fill them, but eventually just made discs of kidskin leather and let them into the tops of the knobs:
Here's the Welti's "before" pic, that appeared on ebay:
http://fallisphoto.deviantart.com/art/Before-63998975
FallisPhoto
Veteran
Another couple of photos of the Perle:
This photo is not of the best quality, but in it, the bellows look like they are leather (they don't have the sharper, crisp folds you'd see with vinyl bellows). If so, and if they are light tight, I can remove the dye from them with rubbing alcohol, redye them and apply a sealer. If they are vinyl, then I'd seriously doubt that they are light tight. I have several sizes of Kodak replacement bellows though, and one of them will fit it (although it might take some modification of the end flaps). Mainly, this thing just needs the hell cleaned out of it, needs to lose the rust, needs new paint on that front door, and it badly needs new (cordovan kidskin) leather.
BTW, do you know if that red paint, in the grooves of the button on the back (and in the grooves of the tripod socket), is original? If so, then I am going to have to make some changes to the way I have been restoring Weltas (I've been doing them in black). I assume that it has faded, since that is a particularly unflattering shade of scarlet.
This photo is not of the best quality, but in it, the bellows look like they are leather (they don't have the sharper, crisp folds you'd see with vinyl bellows). If so, and if they are light tight, I can remove the dye from them with rubbing alcohol, redye them and apply a sealer. If they are vinyl, then I'd seriously doubt that they are light tight. I have several sizes of Kodak replacement bellows though, and one of them will fit it (although it might take some modification of the end flaps). Mainly, this thing just needs the hell cleaned out of it, needs to lose the rust, needs new paint on that front door, and it badly needs new (cordovan kidskin) leather.
BTW, do you know if that red paint, in the grooves of the button on the back (and in the grooves of the tripod socket), is original? If so, then I am going to have to make some changes to the way I have been restoring Weltas (I've been doing them in black). I assume that it has faded, since that is a particularly unflattering shade of scarlet.
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chippy
foo was here
its a c1938 Perle, with the optical finder w/parrallax corection by the looks instead of the pop up finder, also the patterned struts. one of the last i beleive. its difficult to read the scale but it appears in feet so it was made for export which might explain the Weltar lens as well. as i am reasonably sure they didnt offer that on the Perle in Europe (not that it makes it impossible). the bellows are leather, they didnt use vinyl on a Welta.
the red paint is curious. my first thought would be that it is not origional because pretty much every one i see (even in mint condition) are just chrome. but curious because i have a near as mint as one is likely to find 6x9 Weltur and it has just the smallest trace of red paint in the back door slide button! so maybe it is origonal...or at least on some....if so then most likely the late models prior to the war.
WOW-the poor ol girl does need some work hey. its a shame re-chroming is too difficult but you are right done in black is probably the best bet. if you find the leather covering to match the origonal pattern (or close) i am interested also. i have a couple that need some replacing, but i want to keep them looking as they did with the same pattern. i also thought one of these days i will have a bunch of leather handles made the same as origonal. they are always gone!!! please keep us (me lol) informed on how you go with this one. i would be nice to see Perle in some new black leather lol
the red paint is curious. my first thought would be that it is not origional because pretty much every one i see (even in mint condition) are just chrome. but curious because i have a near as mint as one is likely to find 6x9 Weltur and it has just the smallest trace of red paint in the back door slide button! so maybe it is origonal...or at least on some....if so then most likely the late models prior to the war.
WOW-the poor ol girl does need some work hey. its a shame re-chroming is too difficult but you are right done in black is probably the best bet. if you find the leather covering to match the origonal pattern (or close) i am interested also. i have a couple that need some replacing, but i want to keep them looking as they did with the same pattern. i also thought one of these days i will have a bunch of leather handles made the same as origonal. they are always gone!!! please keep us (me lol) informed on how you go with this one. i would be nice to see Perle in some new black leather lol
FallisPhoto
Veteran
There is a guy who sells Italian goatskin leather on ebay, and who goes by the name of Fashion Leather International. He usually has some small sample pieces, around one or two square feet, that he sells for about $1 per square foot. He sells several other kinds of leather, but nearly all of them are too thick except for the goat leather. Wht you want is leather that is about .3mm or .4mm thick. Anyway, I think the grain is a very close match to the leather and leatherette found on several old folders, including the Perle. What do you think?
Oh, and the condition of the camera is pretty much typical of how most of mine start out. If the metal on the shutter and glass on the lens are good, I can fix all the rest. Heck, I'm pretty good at this sort of thing, and I can probably have it looking and working like new within a couple of weeks after I get it (except for the chrome, of course).
Mainly I keep an eye on ebay for good cameras that look like they have been through hell but that still have good metal on the struts and shutter. Photography is my profession, but that's my hobby. Scrubbing rust, dissolving peeling chrome, scraping off rags of old leather and polishing and bringing it all back to as near original as possible is what keeps me away from Zoloft, Valium and so on. When I'm done, I get some very nice cameras out of it too. If you can live with fixed lenses, some of the best of the old workhorses are actually better than 90% of what you can buy new these days.
Oops! Almost forgot to give you Fashion Leather International's URL: http://stores.ebay.com/Fashion-Leather-International Click on "specials" and scroll down, looking for "goat."
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chippy
foo was here
i have a weltini that i am certain has that material on it. i think its great vaule for money and looks good as well but if i am to be critically honest then i would say it is a different pattern to what is on the Welta's. even though in the photos you have it looks very much the same (because once the welta is in the worn state the pattern tends to flatten out),however once you hold the camera in your hand you can tell the difference easily.
when the Welta covering is in good condition it looks more like whats on the voigtlander folders (perkeo) or even the hassleblad--it is more raised hmm...i will have a look for one i think i had bookmarked.....here it is,,perhaps like a couple of covering found at this place http://www.cameraleather.com/colors/
the 'pebbled black calf skin' but i dont think they sell it in sheets...or the 'VH Black Vinyl' but i am not sure if it would emboss like leather would? (i was plannig to impress the same/origonal lines onto the covering as the welta have).
but vaule for money and to make a camera look good again!... that leather from ebay would do very nicely for anyone that isnt as picky as me lol..and it should look good as well
i definately agree-i am sure everyone in the 120 folder forum would as well.... and the proof is on display with some of the acomplished and outstanding examples of photography some folk show off. the old folders have that mechanical tangable feel to them as well.
funny about the zoloft and valium..made me laugh...i understand they are widely used so i hope everyone that does pop a pill doesnt decide to take up camera restoring or the prices will rise LOL. ...i know what you mean though it is enjoyable tinkering with these things. co-incidently i actually had that Perle saved on my list as well but i wont bid knowing you are willing to fix it up, i would of probably only taken a few parts of it, mainly the shutter. it will be better if you get it going as a usable camera. i should like to see it when it is done!
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Muggins
Junk magnet
Blimey, that Perle has been in the wars!
I'll have to post some pics of mine as I'd like to know more about it. Some of mine is in better nick, some of it (espcially the struts) worse. But yours has that horrible shutter lever that you really need to have your finger on before you put it to your eye too...
Fallisphoto, you should post some "during" photos as well as the before and after!
Adrian
I'll have to post some pics of mine as I'd like to know more about it. Some of mine is in better nick, some of it (espcially the struts) worse. But yours has that horrible shutter lever that you really need to have your finger on before you put it to your eye too...
Fallisphoto, you should post some "during" photos as well as the before and after!
Adrian
FallisPhoto
Veteran
Well, someone without those sentiments has bid more than my limit for a camera in that kind of shape, so if you want to bid on it, go to it.
Incidentally, I screwed up bad on another auction. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=160220583667&ssPageName=STRK:MEBI:IT&ih=006 I read the description and made a small bid before looking closely at it. I may get that one -- because the item description is very, very wrong. It isn't just a trim ring that is missing. There's no way to tell even what kind of lens it is, so I can't just hunt down a new front lens element. I'm going to have to get a whole lens and shutter.
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FallisPhoto
Veteran
You have to bear in mind that you are looking at unfinished leather. With a sealer on it, the texture would look a lot "crisper" and you'd get more gloss. No, vinyl does not emboss the same as leather -- it's a different process. To get the embossing on a vinyl leatherette, you would pass it under a heated roller, which would soften it and impress the lettering or design into it. You can't just dampen it and press the design into it, as you would be able to do with leather; you need heat too. Incidentally, on older cameras, that is probably when the "leather" texture was impressed into it too.
Fun fact: On some of the WWII era Zeiss folders, the "leatherette" is actually enamel paint (on a thin cotton cloth base). The painted cloth has the leather pattern and "embossing" molded into it after the paint has set, but before it has hardened. If you try to take the "leatherette" off, it literally crumbles to dust, leaving you with a sheet of dirty gray cloth.
chippy
foo was here
actually the lens on that (the lens missing on that, that is!) is the f2/50 xenon. their top of the range offering. i am familiar with them and can see it is the only lens that would fit.
you must have got your bid withdrawn (looks like 0 bids to me) because of the incorrect item discription. its a shame you could of sent it to me lol. i have one that has those missing parts and the rest of one my cameras is not much good. it was the postage that killed me even looking at it! he had it down at piority mail $32 to OZ--just too expensive for that camera..1st class would prob be around half that
chippy
foo was here
not sure what you mean there Adrian, it has the shutter button on top which actuates the lever on the front of the shutter. thats as good as it gets
chippy
foo was here
i find it hard to beleive sometimes what the prices get to...that is a lot of money for that camera...makes it hard to consider!!sheeze!
Muggins
Junk magnet
Here's my Perle. Less than brilliant pics, but I'm grabbing them between things at work.
Looking at the ebay pics (and yes, I think it was a silly price too!), I now realise that, as Andrew says, there is a link to the shutter release from a button somewhere on that one. Mine doesn't have this - but I know why they must have added it!
It seems a bit of a mixed spec - the struts are quite flimsy, but the lens is fast - f2.9 - despite being a triplet (Meyer-Goerlitz Trioplan), and it's in a Compur-Rapid with a self-timer and a 1/400 top speed.
It's also quite battered! There is red paint on this one - there's a faint red cross-hair on the front glass of the viewfinder which seems odd as it is invisible when you put it to your eye.
How good the lens is I'm not sure. I assumed that any lens that age would be uncoated and merrily scrubbed away (OK, I exaggerate a bit!) the gunge - it looked as though seomeone had dropped it in a pond, it was really disgustingly dirty. Having got through the crud, I realised it was bloomed... So, if it was one of the very delicate early coatings, I've probably wrecked it.
Can you tell me any more about it?
Adrian
Looking at the ebay pics (and yes, I think it was a silly price too!), I now realise that, as Andrew says, there is a link to the shutter release from a button somewhere on that one. Mine doesn't have this - but I know why they must have added it!
It seems a bit of a mixed spec - the struts are quite flimsy, but the lens is fast - f2.9 - despite being a triplet (Meyer-Goerlitz Trioplan), and it's in a Compur-Rapid with a self-timer and a 1/400 top speed.
It's also quite battered! There is red paint on this one - there's a faint red cross-hair on the front glass of the viewfinder which seems odd as it is invisible when you put it to your eye.
How good the lens is I'm not sure. I assumed that any lens that age would be uncoated and merrily scrubbed away (OK, I exaggerate a bit!) the gunge - it looked as though seomeone had dropped it in a pond, it was really disgustingly dirty. Having got through the crud, I realised it was bloomed... So, if it was one of the very delicate early coatings, I've probably wrecked it.
Can you tell me any more about it?
Adrian