pipal
Established
Yes T_om is right. Everyone should use the tools which he enjoys. The other case can be when you make your living on it, then you will choose the faster way probably. But we all make the photos for the fun they are, don't we? 
Martin
Martin
kaiyen
local man of mystery
T_om said:
Tom,
With all due respect, that isn't even remotely what I said, and it's not fair to quote me out of context. I never implied that it takes only a few weeks to turn out a chessmaster, or an expert at photoshop. I said that one can pick up the basic ideas quickly, and I said that you then have to put in the time to become expert at it.
If you had felt it necessary to make your (perfectly valid) point on its own, then great. But why use my words to make me sound like I'm talking out of my ass?
not angry but perhaps offended,
allan
R
ruben
Guest
As a guy that goes along both paths, I would like to add some considerations.
a) What about FILM PROCESSING ?
Film processing is the corner stone of printing. It demmands accuracy and consistent proceedings, otherwise you will be spending exaggerated time when printing. Accuracy and consistency aren't qualities you cannot learn with practice, but these qualities are very much an issue built in personal character. By the way most photo artists I happened to knew lack it.
b) There is no question at all that viewing your frames at computer screen size is much more convenient than viewing them at contact sheet size. But in order to achieve it you must have a scanner/computer hardware allowing you in prctice to scan AND SAVE 36 frames within a single hour. Otherwise you will be missing the contact sheet. I would rather say that for the price of a fast computer and a medium scanner you may buy several used but good enlargers. But again if you already have the hardware, then there is no question what is better.
c) According to my personal case, hardware and budget, what works better is the combination of both worlds. Wet film processing, film scanning, computer editing and selective wet darkroom printing. But we people are different one from another and Photography like life is a road without fixed rules - you have to discover by trial and error what works best for you.
Cheers,
Ruben
a) What about FILM PROCESSING ?
Film processing is the corner stone of printing. It demmands accuracy and consistent proceedings, otherwise you will be spending exaggerated time when printing. Accuracy and consistency aren't qualities you cannot learn with practice, but these qualities are very much an issue built in personal character. By the way most photo artists I happened to knew lack it.
b) There is no question at all that viewing your frames at computer screen size is much more convenient than viewing them at contact sheet size. But in order to achieve it you must have a scanner/computer hardware allowing you in prctice to scan AND SAVE 36 frames within a single hour. Otherwise you will be missing the contact sheet. I would rather say that for the price of a fast computer and a medium scanner you may buy several used but good enlargers. But again if you already have the hardware, then there is no question what is better.
c) According to my personal case, hardware and budget, what works better is the combination of both worlds. Wet film processing, film scanning, computer editing and selective wet darkroom printing. But we people are different one from another and Photography like life is a road without fixed rules - you have to discover by trial and error what works best for you.
Cheers,
Ruben
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Trius
Waiting on Maitani
Go wet! Gene is my friend. Gene and I have a LOT in common (more than just cameras), and I suspect our friendship will only grow. But we are ying and yang on workflow and printing. I am something of a computer geek, too (though not as much as Gene, I think,) but for some reason I can't warm up to a digital workflow.
Hmmm, this give me an idea. I'll do your darkroom work, Gene, you do my PS work!
Earl
Hmmm, this give me an idea. I'll do your darkroom work, Gene, you do my PS work!
Earl
GeneW
Veteran
Earl, you're on!
Actually, if I had a place to set up a *permanent* darkroom, I could easily be swayed to resume darkroom work. But I really dislike putting up and taking down temporary darkroom setups, which is what I must do in my house. The preps and cleanup after takes more time than the printing, alas ...
Gene
Actually, if I had a place to set up a *permanent* darkroom, I could easily be swayed to resume darkroom work. But I really dislike putting up and taking down temporary darkroom setups, which is what I must do in my house. The preps and cleanup after takes more time than the printing, alas ...
Gene
Toby
On the alert
Hmm, interesting the only thing I'd like to add is a comment on all 'modern photography' and especially relevent to all us rff'ers.
POTENTIALLY wet darkroom is still superior to digital workflow but can you fulfill that potential?
Learning photoshop only costs you time and electricity, even experienced wet darkroom practitioners spend lots of money getting to that genuinely fine print.
After all is said and done only one of these two processes has a any genuine magic about it. Can you guess which one I'm talking about?
Common sense doesn't always work!
POTENTIALLY wet darkroom is still superior to digital workflow but can you fulfill that potential?
Learning photoshop only costs you time and electricity, even experienced wet darkroom practitioners spend lots of money getting to that genuinely fine print.
After all is said and done only one of these two processes has a any genuine magic about it. Can you guess which one I'm talking about?
Common sense doesn't always work!
djon
Well-known
One of the biggest pleasures of the darkroom is standing, instead of sitting on one's patoot.
This is especially true when one's working with interested parties of the opposite or otherwise appropriate sex:
Where would you rather be, in a darkroom or on a pair of swivel chairs?
This is especially true when one's working with interested parties of the opposite or otherwise appropriate sex:
Where would you rather be, in a darkroom or on a pair of swivel chairs?
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Solinar
Analog Preferred
I have a stool and a small stereo. I'm working on getting a fridge with a red safe light for beer.
djon
Well-known
"I have a stool ... I'm working on getting a fridge with a red safe light for beer."
Enough beer and you'll be needing that pair of swivel chairs I mentioned
Enough beer and you'll be needing that pair of swivel chairs I mentioned
Trius
Waiting on Maitani
Gene: I agree about temporary setups being totally frustrating. My basement space is totally unusable right now, which is why I do'nt have mine setup. We'll probably be moving this Spring or ealry Summer, so an appropriate space is one the priorities, along with a clear view of the southern sky so BEV can be received for HNIC.
Earl :angel:
Earl :angel:
T_om
Well-known
Toby said:
I do not find this to be the case at all. If applied to *individuals*, then perhaps so.... John Doe may be inept in a darkroom but a PhotoShop wizard and Sally Doe, his sister, may be a master printer.
If I have one of my scanned digital files printed by Millers on fiber and you print one of your shots on fiber, the better of the two *photographs* will look the best, not the better of the two processes.
Garry Winogrand was right, nothing matters but the photograph. Unfortunately, what sometimes happens is that groups get so enamored of the 'craft' aspect of photography, nothing else matters. I fell into that same trap myself and it took a long time to extricate myself.
If you have no vision, it doesn't matter one whit what process is used to produce the resulting poor photography.
Tom
djon
Well-known
Superior results aren't on the menu for students or other beginners. Satisfaction's possible, though it may be a roadblock..depending on your goals.
People aren't more suited inherently for one technical path or another. And temporary lashup darkrooms are great learning environments, probably more so than inadequate computers (though many printers and a few scanners may rival limited darkrooms technically, and more serious equipment will beat the best darkrooms in many respects).
There's more to be learned about visual matters in a disciplined environment, struggling with limits, so the more narrow set of factors that goven darkroom work might make special sense for learning. But if a person loves the infinite complexity of computers and digital tools, hell, go for it. :angel:
People aren't more suited inherently for one technical path or another. And temporary lashup darkrooms are great learning environments, probably more so than inadequate computers (though many printers and a few scanners may rival limited darkrooms technically, and more serious equipment will beat the best darkrooms in many respects).
There's more to be learned about visual matters in a disciplined environment, struggling with limits, so the more narrow set of factors that goven darkroom work might make special sense for learning. But if a person loves the infinite complexity of computers and digital tools, hell, go for it. :angel:
Solinar
Analog Preferred
It is a digital planet. I do print color digitally, but as Tom mentioned I believe it is less expensive to scan and have the lab do the prints, if not better.
The only trouble I'm having with my B&W darkroom equipment is 1) only the opal bulbs seem to wear out every few years and 2) I now feel like the lone ranger when buying chemicals or paper. In the time that I've had my present darkroom set up, I've been through two computers, two versions of photo shop, two scanners and two printers.
The only trouble I'm having with my B&W darkroom equipment is 1) only the opal bulbs seem to wear out every few years and 2) I now feel like the lone ranger when buying chemicals or paper. In the time that I've had my present darkroom set up, I've been through two computers, two versions of photo shop, two scanners and two printers.
N
Nikon Bob
Guest
T_om said:
I have to agree with you on those points. One way is not inherently better than the other given all the variables you mentioned. I seems that most people are not totally committed to one approach or the other but find various combinations of the two work best for their needs/expectations. If the end product is to your satisfaction that is all that matters in the end.
Bob
stet
lurker.
Hi Jocko--
Looks like you've already made up your mind, but I could throw in my 2 cents to maybe reinforce your decision.
My girlfriend and I rent darkroom time now, and we're looking forward to setting up our own in our next home. We had briefly talked about getting a scanner and a nice digital camera, but a considerable deciding factor for us was that we both spend pretty long hours in front of a computer for our jobs. After a whole day staring at a screen, we really don't want to tack on more hours to enjoy my post-work passion. On top of the usual stated enjoyments and qualities of darkroom printing, it's also a refuge for us from the rest of our digitized day.
If you write and create your art onscreen, maybe that would make a difference.
Cheers,
Rick
Looks like you've already made up your mind, but I could throw in my 2 cents to maybe reinforce your decision.
My girlfriend and I rent darkroom time now, and we're looking forward to setting up our own in our next home. We had briefly talked about getting a scanner and a nice digital camera, but a considerable deciding factor for us was that we both spend pretty long hours in front of a computer for our jobs. After a whole day staring at a screen, we really don't want to tack on more hours to enjoy my post-work passion. On top of the usual stated enjoyments and qualities of darkroom printing, it's also a refuge for us from the rest of our digitized day.
If you write and create your art onscreen, maybe that would make a difference.
Cheers,
Rick
x-ray
Veteran
wet and dry -- a place for both
wet and dry -- a place for both
I've wet printed for fourty eight years and have printed hundreds of thousands of prints in my business. My father got me on track at the age of nine and after college apprenticed under a master photographe for a year. The fellow that I studied under told me that good photographers start in the darkroom and learn to print fine prints before shooting in the studio. he also said that you havent printed untill you've made your first hundred thousand prints. That might be a little extreme but there's some truth to leartning to print and correct and see mistakes before you ever start to shoot and make those mistakes yorself. I studied in the mid seventies with Ansel Adams and really refined my technique. Even though my commercial business is 95% digital through to print I still shote and print film for my personal projects and a few jobs a year. I'm in the process of completing prints for three shows that I have opening in January. One show is toned silver gelatine prints and the other two are digital pigment prints. I've spent years getting to this level of quality in the darkroom and spent a considerable amount of time and money to get to the point I'm at in the digital darkroom. I now feel with the knowledge and equipment that I have plus the combination of paper / pigments and photoshop skill that I can equal or exceed the quality of a silver print. I hesitate to say one is bette than another but I will say they are slightly different. I feel my digital prints are more like my platinum prints but I have the ability to dodge and burn and control the print to a greater degree than can be achieved in the darkroom. On the other hand a wet print is a joy to make and a joy to look at. I absolutely love the process of making a fine art wet perint. For me I pick the process for the subject and application.
Neither process is easy. If you dont know what a master printer can do with a negative then you probably will have a problem with both processes. You need a standard to judge your work against unless you just want to make a print and don't care if it's a piece of art. If you know and see quality I think the digital process is easier to learn but the wet darkroom is magic.
wet and dry -- a place for both
I've wet printed for fourty eight years and have printed hundreds of thousands of prints in my business. My father got me on track at the age of nine and after college apprenticed under a master photographe for a year. The fellow that I studied under told me that good photographers start in the darkroom and learn to print fine prints before shooting in the studio. he also said that you havent printed untill you've made your first hundred thousand prints. That might be a little extreme but there's some truth to leartning to print and correct and see mistakes before you ever start to shoot and make those mistakes yorself. I studied in the mid seventies with Ansel Adams and really refined my technique. Even though my commercial business is 95% digital through to print I still shote and print film for my personal projects and a few jobs a year. I'm in the process of completing prints for three shows that I have opening in January. One show is toned silver gelatine prints and the other two are digital pigment prints. I've spent years getting to this level of quality in the darkroom and spent a considerable amount of time and money to get to the point I'm at in the digital darkroom. I now feel with the knowledge and equipment that I have plus the combination of paper / pigments and photoshop skill that I can equal or exceed the quality of a silver print. I hesitate to say one is bette than another but I will say they are slightly different. I feel my digital prints are more like my platinum prints but I have the ability to dodge and burn and control the print to a greater degree than can be achieved in the darkroom. On the other hand a wet print is a joy to make and a joy to look at. I absolutely love the process of making a fine art wet perint. For me I pick the process for the subject and application.
Neither process is easy. If you dont know what a master printer can do with a negative then you probably will have a problem with both processes. You need a standard to judge your work against unless you just want to make a print and don't care if it's a piece of art. If you know and see quality I think the digital process is easier to learn but the wet darkroom is magic.
Bryan Lee
Expat Street Photographer
This has been said but I will make it simple. One is not enough, You need both.
Even if you are a fantastic printer but not known you need the digital process to get your work out. Ive mentioned bittorrent here before without much intrest from the group. There are huge picture files being sent all over the world and it is changing the entire stock photography and art photograhy business. It is my theory that digital pictures will have no monetary value in the future as everyone becomes a digital photographer and a lack of proving original authorship to protect copyright. As far as photoshop goes, spending years learning it is a entire waste of time. It is the equivelant of learning the Apple2 when you will soon have Tiger. Does anyone remember the MOJO? I still get the ocaisonal request for a fax, Why bother when I can send a encrypted PDF. This technology is changing so fast that unless you are writing software or sitting at a desk 24 hours a day using it you would be better off just sticking to the basics. Hand Printing on the otherhand is a almost perfect science having reached its conclusion of process.
A good hand printed black and white photograph signed by the artest will always have value just as a painted picture or a old original document signed by its author. With the majority of photographers switching to digital and fewer people interested in Large/Medium format or printing. I predict large prints will increase in value as fewer are capeable of making them. There should also be a good market in 10x12 prints as more people become collectors of photograph images because of the prices and limeted availability of painted art. Can you Imagine a day when Sotherbys will have a auction for a digital print? In a digital world people like to be able to get their hands on something that feels real.
Anyway Im off this week to the Thailand Photo Fair to check out the latest gear in digital and also looking for a couple Packard Shutters and some big glass. I plan on buying my first dedicated small format scanner at the Photo Fair and then building my own large format camera.
I can see the future but Im backpeddling as fast as I can!
R
ruben
Guest
Solinar said:
What about a dedicatged microwave for warming chemicals and a dedicated dishwasher for cleaning ?
Jocko
Off With The Pixies
Sorry - timezones and other things kept me from RFF - I just want to say to everyone that you're just brilliant! So much food for thought... I'm particularly struck by Ruben's comments on film processing, the one aspect of darkroom work that has always worried me - when I used to use a grubby college darkroom, the drying negs ended up looking like flypaper! Thank you all once again!
Finder
Veteran
Jocko, if you are going for a wet darkroom, think long term. Start with the enlarger. Get at least a medium-format enlarger if not a 4x5 enlarger. If you buy and enlarger every time you change format, you will run out of space quickly. Also, medium and large-format enlargers are steadier and can usually give prints sizes up to 20x24. Not all 35mm enlargers can do that. You may also want to think about a color head. It can be used with varible contrast paper and if you ever go to color, you are all set.
Next the enlarger lens. Buy Nikon, Rodenstock, or Schneider lenses. Get the best you can and get a modern lens as they are coated. Be careful of Rodenstock and Schneider as they have a budget line. A good enlarger lens will have a six-element design (or more). The focal length is dependant on format - 50mm for 35mm, 80mm for 6x6/6x7, 150mm for 4x5. ebay is a good place to look. Focus wide open, print at least two stop closed down.
Digital timers are more consistant than analog.
The easal should be flat and not slip. I usually get two-blade easels because they are cheaper than their four-bladed cousins and work just as well. Start with an 8x10 or 11x14 easel. Get another easal if you print larger. You will most likey collect a few over time - I have four from 10x12 to 20x24.
Get a good grain focuser. That is the only way to tell an enlarger is properly focused. Always focus it on the same type of paper you are printing on.
A simple sheet of glass is fine to start contact printing. I print with the negatives in their selves. Place the an empty nagative carrier in the enlarger and focus the frame so you collimate the light and know where the area of even illumination is.
Trays are like easels, you will collect different size sets as you go. Drum processors like the Jobo are healthier as it prevents the air from filling up with the smell of chemistry and lets you print up to 20x24 in a fairly small space. I print color and really like my Jobo CPP-2.
Film tanks are either plastic or stainless steel. I have used both. Air bells are thought to happen with plasitic more than stainless steel, but I have not had these problems. Stainless steel can be loaded when damp, plasitc can't. Stainless steel reels can bend if dropped and are then useless. If using stainless steel, do not fill the tank too full or you will have greater density at the top and bottom of the negatives than the center - the developer is only being moved by the motion of the reel edge and the center is not being agitated.
Then there are odds and ends. Thermometer, measuring tube, scissors, red light (for b&w), mixing rod, print tongs, etc.
Most importantly, enjoy. Take your time and collect the things you need. A lot can be done as you get the bits and pieces so you don't need to start with everything. I would get your film processing stuff and start with that as you look for your printing equipment. Contact printing does not require an easel nor a grain focuser.
Good luck.
Next the enlarger lens. Buy Nikon, Rodenstock, or Schneider lenses. Get the best you can and get a modern lens as they are coated. Be careful of Rodenstock and Schneider as they have a budget line. A good enlarger lens will have a six-element design (or more). The focal length is dependant on format - 50mm for 35mm, 80mm for 6x6/6x7, 150mm for 4x5. ebay is a good place to look. Focus wide open, print at least two stop closed down.
Digital timers are more consistant than analog.
The easal should be flat and not slip. I usually get two-blade easels because they are cheaper than their four-bladed cousins and work just as well. Start with an 8x10 or 11x14 easel. Get another easal if you print larger. You will most likey collect a few over time - I have four from 10x12 to 20x24.
Get a good grain focuser. That is the only way to tell an enlarger is properly focused. Always focus it on the same type of paper you are printing on.
A simple sheet of glass is fine to start contact printing. I print with the negatives in their selves. Place the an empty nagative carrier in the enlarger and focus the frame so you collimate the light and know where the area of even illumination is.
Trays are like easels, you will collect different size sets as you go. Drum processors like the Jobo are healthier as it prevents the air from filling up with the smell of chemistry and lets you print up to 20x24 in a fairly small space. I print color and really like my Jobo CPP-2.
Film tanks are either plastic or stainless steel. I have used both. Air bells are thought to happen with plasitic more than stainless steel, but I have not had these problems. Stainless steel can be loaded when damp, plasitc can't. Stainless steel reels can bend if dropped and are then useless. If using stainless steel, do not fill the tank too full or you will have greater density at the top and bottom of the negatives than the center - the developer is only being moved by the motion of the reel edge and the center is not being agitated.
Then there are odds and ends. Thermometer, measuring tube, scissors, red light (for b&w), mixing rod, print tongs, etc.
Most importantly, enjoy. Take your time and collect the things you need. A lot can be done as you get the bits and pieces so you don't need to start with everything. I would get your film processing stuff and start with that as you look for your printing equipment. Contact printing does not require an easel nor a grain focuser.
Good luck.