Steve M.
Veteran
Bit of a loaded question. I normally use TLR's and a Hassey, but have a lot of trouble holding the things straight. On every roll at least half of the shots have buildings or people that are leaning all over the place. This doesn't happen when I use a folder, so maybe that's the best way for my problem. I use a prism finder on the 'flex and that works well, but a prism finder on the Hassey looks awful and makes the camera too big and bulky to sling over my shoulder
I've used quite a few folders in the past. The Welta Weltur w/ Tessar was great, but pretty pricey and hard to find. I just sold a Super Ikonta IV and a Super Ikonta 533/16 because even though the shots were very good, they weren't up to the Rolleiflex T or Autocord that I have. I want it to be 6x6 and have a coupled rangefinder if possible, and an auto stop on the film advance would be preferred to a red window. Any 120 folder shooters here that have any recommendations?
For now I'm using a Bessa RF w/ Heliar and cropping to 6x6, so I know there are folders out there that can compete w/ a Hassey. The shots from the Bessa are better! But 8 shots to a roll is a little inconvenient and the red window film advance is slow to use.
I've used quite a few folders in the past. The Welta Weltur w/ Tessar was great, but pretty pricey and hard to find. I just sold a Super Ikonta IV and a Super Ikonta 533/16 because even though the shots were very good, they weren't up to the Rolleiflex T or Autocord that I have. I want it to be 6x6 and have a coupled rangefinder if possible, and an auto stop on the film advance would be preferred to a red window. Any 120 folder shooters here that have any recommendations?
For now I'm using a Bessa RF w/ Heliar and cropping to 6x6, so I know there are folders out there that can compete w/ a Hassey. The shots from the Bessa are better! But 8 shots to a roll is a little inconvenient and the red window film advance is slow to use.
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Rollmo
Film User
Well, I have only a Perkeo II...so I will recommend that you consider this folder. Probably one of the smallest 6X6 folders.
I have also heard the Agfa Isolette with the Solinar lens is very good. Sure there will be others with varying opinion.
I have also heard the Agfa Isolette with the Solinar lens is very good. Sure there will be others with varying opinion.
ruby.monkey
Veteran
Voigtlander Bessa III?
fuji645
Established
Try a Fuji GS 645. It's not a square 6x6 (645) but it has an excellent lens, lever wind with stop and a built in light meter and fairly compact. It's hard finding one in good condition but if you do it's a great camera.
AgentX
Well-known
If the Super Ikonta didn't do it for you, I'd say it's time to drop the $2k+ on a Bessa III/Fujica whatever-it-is...although it seems pretty big for a folder.
Issues with folding cameras as they age, construction-wise, are worse than with a lot of other designs IMHO. Lens/film plane alignment issues and the need for flexibility in their construction in general seem to work against them as the years go by.
Buying a classic folder design as a primary camera seems like a road to disappointment. If experience has convinced you that a folder's the best design for you, maybe sell some of the Hassy or TLR gear and get the best, most practical (and manufacturer-supported) folder you can get these days.
Edit: Or consider the [modern] Mamiya 6, as the lens panel does collapse a bit to make it more compact... Dunno about the classic Mamiya 6, but I'm hazarding a guess it's as much of a crap shoot as most old folders. Although the thread currently below this one is giving it high marks for optical quality...
Issues with folding cameras as they age, construction-wise, are worse than with a lot of other designs IMHO. Lens/film plane alignment issues and the need for flexibility in their construction in general seem to work against them as the years go by.
Buying a classic folder design as a primary camera seems like a road to disappointment. If experience has convinced you that a folder's the best design for you, maybe sell some of the Hassy or TLR gear and get the best, most practical (and manufacturer-supported) folder you can get these days.
Edit: Or consider the [modern] Mamiya 6, as the lens panel does collapse a bit to make it more compact... Dunno about the classic Mamiya 6, but I'm hazarding a guess it's as much of a crap shoot as most old folders. Although the thread currently below this one is giving it high marks for optical quality...
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Thardy
Veteran
I bought an old 6x6 folder (Ikonka) a couple of years ago. After a short time I decided not to waste anymore money on 120 film and processing.
pagpow
Well-known
Depends on the sort of shooting you do. Many argue for the Classic Mamiya 6 folder which moves the film plane, not the lens, to focus. If you shoot only landscapes, or other subjects that allow infinity or hyperfocal focus at f11-16, I have found Ikontas and Nettars to do fine even with their three element lenses. And many have commented that dealing with the less complicated ones involves less complexity of mechanism to go wrong or jam.
There is much posted on the net on these options. On the other hand, you seem to have ruled out some very good ones and certainly there are many who say that going the folder route will lead to disappointment.
Certo 6 -- website -- provides a hierarchy of lenses in each folder brand, if that helps.
There is much posted on the net on these options. On the other hand, you seem to have ruled out some very good ones and certainly there are many who say that going the folder route will lead to disappointment.
Certo 6 -- website -- provides a hierarchy of lenses in each folder brand, if that helps.
Silva Lining
CanoHasseLeica
Well I have used a few and my two favourites have been the Voigtlander Perkeo II (or IIIe) and the Franka Solida III both are 6x6 with non-coupled rangefinders.
The Perkeo IIIe that I have now has the same lens as my old Perkeo II (which I sold) a Colour Skopar 80/3.5. The Franka has a Schneider-Kreuznach Radionar 80/2.9. The are both quite small, with the Perkeo being a size that in can be squeezed into a bag and taken with you wherever.
Both produce sharp clear results - OK they're not Hasselblad quality, but not much is, but the do weigh less than a Hasselblad film back!!!
(Oh and I love my Hasselblad! It will be buried with me, unless of course I put on a little weight, then they might just squeeze in the Perkeo somewhere ;-) )
The Perkeo IIIe that I have now has the same lens as my old Perkeo II (which I sold) a Colour Skopar 80/3.5. The Franka has a Schneider-Kreuznach Radionar 80/2.9. The are both quite small, with the Perkeo being a size that in can be squeezed into a bag and taken with you wherever.
Both produce sharp clear results - OK they're not Hasselblad quality, but not much is, but the do weigh less than a Hasselblad film back!!!
(Oh and I love my Hasselblad! It will be buried with me, unless of course I put on a little weight, then they might just squeeze in the Perkeo somewhere ;-) )
jnoir
Well-known
I agree with Silva's suggestion of a Franka Solida (never mind it being a II, III or plain Solida, they were named rather randomly and cameras with same features received different badges). Bear in mind that the versions with rangefinder had it uncoupled.
Most folders will require a CLA if not already done. Bellows may need to be changed, grease may have solidified, rangefinder may be out of alignment vertical and/or horizontally... However, a good folder is, in my opinion, unbeatable. I own nearly 100 and use one of them everyday.
There are plenty of Isolettes out there (III with uncoupled rangefinder, II without rangefinder at all and Super with it coupled), as others said Solinar is the most sought-after lens (it is a Tessar-like design). Apotar is a quite capable glass, and if I were you I'd skip an Agnar lens. They are 6x6. Ensign cameras are also worth a look, it's m favorite brand.
Iskra is a copy of the Super Isolette with a few improved things (but with lesser quality overall). Super Ikontas are great but heavy. Mamiya-6 is a good, original option. A "D. Zuiko" lens means that it is a 4-element design (D=4, E=5, etc)
My vote, however, goes for a more or less unknown camera, the Ensign Commando. It has focal plane focusing like a Mamiya-6. Ensign cameras, with and without rangefinder, are great cameras, very rugged and very very cleverly built.
Most folders will require a CLA if not already done. Bellows may need to be changed, grease may have solidified, rangefinder may be out of alignment vertical and/or horizontally... However, a good folder is, in my opinion, unbeatable. I own nearly 100 and use one of them everyday.
There are plenty of Isolettes out there (III with uncoupled rangefinder, II without rangefinder at all and Super with it coupled), as others said Solinar is the most sought-after lens (it is a Tessar-like design). Apotar is a quite capable glass, and if I were you I'd skip an Agnar lens. They are 6x6. Ensign cameras are also worth a look, it's m favorite brand.
Iskra is a copy of the Super Isolette with a few improved things (but with lesser quality overall). Super Ikontas are great but heavy. Mamiya-6 is a good, original option. A "D. Zuiko" lens means that it is a 4-element design (D=4, E=5, etc)
My vote, however, goes for a more or less unknown camera, the Ensign Commando. It has focal plane focusing like a Mamiya-6. Ensign cameras, with and without rangefinder, are great cameras, very rugged and very very cleverly built.
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ruby.monkey
Veteran
Bendy cameras aside, couldn't you just fit your current bodies with a grid screen? Then you would have no difficulty in keeping things upright.
jnoir
Well-known
Roger Hicks
Veteran
'Baby' Linhof (ST IV, ST V, T70) with 6x6 back. Well, they fold up...
Cheers,
R.
Cheers,
R.
Steve M.
Veteran
I've tried everything w/ the TLR's. Grid screens, bubble levels, etc. I still get slanted subjects. The only thing that fixes that is putting a prism on my Rolleiflex T, and that works really well. But w/ 50+ year old cameras it doesn't hurt to have a spare shooter.
Probably the best recommendation is to get a Bessa III. Is it 6x6? Well, I don't want to spend that sort of money anyway, but truthfully that's probably the best solution image wise other than an Isolette w/ Solinar. Sample images I've seen are certainly Hassy quality and then some.
A lot of people seem to have gotten some really bad folders! I never have had any film alignment problems w/ any folder I've owned. It usually is light leaks or shutter issues. Stopped down to f16 a little misalignment isn't going to mean a thing anyway. Easy enough to put a little ground glass on the film rails and ck the focus on the folders. I have yet to own any MF camera that takes photos better than my Bessa RF folder w/ Heliar lens (uncoated no less) unless it's a Bessa II w/ Color Heliar or a Bessa III. So Hassy quality is doable. You just have to have the right lens sample. Yes, a Hassy Planar lens is good stuff, but a Heliar has a look all it's own. Both are superb.
I guess that since this is a visual thing, here's what I mean. I need a folder that takes photos as good as these shots. A coupled RF and auto film advance are good to have, but I'll settle for not having them if I can get good photos out of it.
#1 is w/ Delta 100 in the Bessa RF w/ uncoated Heliar (please ignore the development problem. Ack!)
#2 is the same camera w/ TMax
#3 is the same camera w/ Delta 100 again (posted this one before, but I like it because it shows the fluid yet sharp qualities of the Heliar lens)
#4 is w/ an old beater Rolleiflex T w/ a Tessar lens and Tri-X
Probably the best recommendation is to get a Bessa III. Is it 6x6? Well, I don't want to spend that sort of money anyway, but truthfully that's probably the best solution image wise other than an Isolette w/ Solinar. Sample images I've seen are certainly Hassy quality and then some.
A lot of people seem to have gotten some really bad folders! I never have had any film alignment problems w/ any folder I've owned. It usually is light leaks or shutter issues. Stopped down to f16 a little misalignment isn't going to mean a thing anyway. Easy enough to put a little ground glass on the film rails and ck the focus on the folders. I have yet to own any MF camera that takes photos better than my Bessa RF folder w/ Heliar lens (uncoated no less) unless it's a Bessa II w/ Color Heliar or a Bessa III. So Hassy quality is doable. You just have to have the right lens sample. Yes, a Hassy Planar lens is good stuff, but a Heliar has a look all it's own. Both are superb.
I guess that since this is a visual thing, here's what I mean. I need a folder that takes photos as good as these shots. A coupled RF and auto film advance are good to have, but I'll settle for not having them if I can get good photos out of it.
#1 is w/ Delta 100 in the Bessa RF w/ uncoated Heliar (please ignore the development problem. Ack!)
#2 is the same camera w/ TMax
#3 is the same camera w/ Delta 100 again (posted this one before, but I like it because it shows the fluid yet sharp qualities of the Heliar lens)
#4 is w/ an old beater Rolleiflex T w/ a Tessar lens and Tri-X
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Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
Hard to beat a good Iskra if you can find one ... finding one can be a problem though. When I bought mine from a reputable Russian seller it arrived with issues and I returned it straight away and eventually received one that has given me no problems in a couple of years of ownership.
The lens of the Iskra is it's strong point IMO ... incredibly sharp and amazingly flare resistant! It's not the most intuative camera to shoot with but it's capable of impressive results though it's major weakness as we all know is the film transport mechanism. On the upside it has a remarkably bright rangefinder/viewfinder though typically of that era it's a little squinty size wise.
The lens of the Iskra is it's strong point IMO ... incredibly sharp and amazingly flare resistant! It's not the most intuative camera to shoot with but it's capable of impressive results though it's major weakness as we all know is the film transport mechanism. On the upside it has a remarkably bright rangefinder/viewfinder though typically of that era it's a little squinty size wise.
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Steve M.
Veteran
Thanks Keith. Is that Tri-X? Looks like you shot it close to wide open. Great shot, and just what I'm looking for. That cat looks like one mean customer who apparently doesn't think much of the modeling gig.
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
Thanks Steve,
Tmax 100 from memory and it was shot wide open at near minumum focusing range. The rangefinder is extremely accurate ... I reset it for infinity when I got the camera and have always been impressed with just how precise it is over it's entire range.
I have a bit of a love hate relationship with that Iskra ... it's a brilliant camera with some strange (IMO) ergonomics. Can't fault the lens though!
chris00nj
Young Luddite
+1 on that opinion.
I find it hard to think that any of these other suggestions are going to beat the Super Ikonta IV with a Tessar, which was the pinnacle 6x6 design by the arguably the best folder company.
Only the Super Ikonta III and IV had a automatic winding stop. Basically every other folder has a red window.
I think the Bessa III is your best choice.
W
wlewisiii
Guest
I gotta agree. If the SI isn't good enough then I really can't imagine any folder being much better. The only possible one (aside from going whole hog Linhof as per Roger) would be a Bessa II with the Heliar 105mm/F3.5 (5 Elements/3 Groups) as you note above. I'm not sure that's the ticket for your problem though.
Really sounds like you're about ready for LF rather than MF to me...
William
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Wayno
Well-known
I really love the Super Ikonta IV, but the front cell focussing definitely compromises sharpness to varying degrees dependant upon subject distance and aperture. I guess that unit focussing is necessay for ultimate sharpness, but I'm happy to live with the performance of the SI because it's such a great package.
citizen99
Well-known
I can endorse the Super Ikonta III, my model with the Novar lens produced some very fine pictures, at least by my 'domestic user' (rather than 'professional') standards, and it is built like a little jewel.
I've also had some very fine 6x9 results from my Ensign Selfix 820 (front cell focussing Ross Xpres) which can be used for 6x6 with the built-in hinged masks, or there is the Selfix 12-20 for 'normal' 75mm 6x6. These non-rangefinder versions are relatively simple mechanically (which can be seen as a reliability advantage for old mechanisms ), and come up regularly on eBay.
Not wishing to ignore the Voigtlanders, Welturs etc which are well mentioned on the thread, but mine being pre-1940-ish are perhaps a bit out of scope.
I've also had some very fine 6x9 results from my Ensign Selfix 820 (front cell focussing Ross Xpres) which can be used for 6x6 with the built-in hinged masks, or there is the Selfix 12-20 for 'normal' 75mm 6x6. These non-rangefinder versions are relatively simple mechanically (which can be seen as a reliability advantage for old mechanisms
), and come up regularly on eBay.Not wishing to ignore the Voigtlanders, Welturs etc which are well mentioned on the thread, but mine being pre-1940-ish are perhaps a bit out of scope.
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