pismo923
Established
I came across these interesting articles regarding "CLA vs overhaul".
http://www.zeisscamera.com/cla.shtml
http://www.zeisscamera.com/services_cla.shtml
Reading many forum posts and classified ads it seems that many times these words are used interchangeably when there is obviously a significant difference. Reading these articles, the implication is that that a CLA is a waste of time and money on a 50+ year old mechanical camera such as a Leica. It in fact does more harm than good according to the writer Henry Scherer. A complete overhaul is always necessary and you can't do that in a few days for a couple hundred dollars or less.
" So here's the long and short of it. CLA usually means that you have been robbed and your camera has been set up for a very expensive repair. I have yet to see a camera that has supposedly had a CLA which has actually been cleaned and lubricated. All have been dirty and full of old hardened grease, dirt and metal wear products. Some have been "adjusted", and adjusted is not the right word because it does not mean "full of bent parts".
"The main problem I see with cameras that are sent to me that are not performing properly after having had a CLA is that when I open the camera it is apparent that absolutely nothing of any substance has been done to the camera. I have yet to open a camera that has had a CLA that is not filthy dirty inside with the parts either not lubricated or covered with ancient hardened lubricant. In some cases I have seen cameras that have been lubricated, but the lubricant was uselessly applied on top of parts instead of underneath them where it should have been applied"
"If you do send your camera to someone for a CLA, and you are fortunate enough to really get one you should understand what a CLA really is. If it is an "honest" CLA, and I've never yet seen one of these, it is a very superficial camera service that is appropriate only for a camera that is in otherwise full functioning condition and which has been regularly receiving "honest" CLA's on a frequency of no less than 5 years throughout its life. In the old days when people could afford to purchase mechanical watches everyone knew it was necessary to have the watch cleaned, lubricated and adjusted every three to five years. This wisdom was also well known among camera owners because of the similarity between watches and mechanical cameras. But this knowledge is not so wide spread today"
Well if nothing else, Mr. Scherer certainly doesn't mince his words. While he seems to be specifically talking about Contax cameras, from his perspective it probably includes Leicas as well What are your thoughts on the subject?
http://www.zeisscamera.com/cla.shtml
http://www.zeisscamera.com/services_cla.shtml
Reading many forum posts and classified ads it seems that many times these words are used interchangeably when there is obviously a significant difference. Reading these articles, the implication is that that a CLA is a waste of time and money on a 50+ year old mechanical camera such as a Leica. It in fact does more harm than good according to the writer Henry Scherer. A complete overhaul is always necessary and you can't do that in a few days for a couple hundred dollars or less.
" So here's the long and short of it. CLA usually means that you have been robbed and your camera has been set up for a very expensive repair. I have yet to see a camera that has supposedly had a CLA which has actually been cleaned and lubricated. All have been dirty and full of old hardened grease, dirt and metal wear products. Some have been "adjusted", and adjusted is not the right word because it does not mean "full of bent parts".
"The main problem I see with cameras that are sent to me that are not performing properly after having had a CLA is that when I open the camera it is apparent that absolutely nothing of any substance has been done to the camera. I have yet to open a camera that has had a CLA that is not filthy dirty inside with the parts either not lubricated or covered with ancient hardened lubricant. In some cases I have seen cameras that have been lubricated, but the lubricant was uselessly applied on top of parts instead of underneath them where it should have been applied"
"If you do send your camera to someone for a CLA, and you are fortunate enough to really get one you should understand what a CLA really is. If it is an "honest" CLA, and I've never yet seen one of these, it is a very superficial camera service that is appropriate only for a camera that is in otherwise full functioning condition and which has been regularly receiving "honest" CLA's on a frequency of no less than 5 years throughout its life. In the old days when people could afford to purchase mechanical watches everyone knew it was necessary to have the watch cleaned, lubricated and adjusted every three to five years. This wisdom was also well known among camera owners because of the similarity between watches and mechanical cameras. But this knowledge is not so wide spread today"
Well if nothing else, Mr. Scherer certainly doesn't mince his words. While he seems to be specifically talking about Contax cameras, from his perspective it probably includes Leicas as well What are your thoughts on the subject?
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back alley
IMAGES
i have read that mister s is quite full of himself...
pismo923
Established
I can see where someone would say that Joe.
Vickko
Veteran
Well, I think you have to balance off "rebuild" vs "maintenance". e.g. when you bring a car in for an oil change, you aren't going to get an engine rebuild.
Most of my experience is with Leica M's, and there are known points that need maintenance and re-alignment, so, they get the attention. But it is not a full strip-down and rebuild, unless it is warranted. I've also done the full strip-down, but that is after doing a thorough diagnosis and confirmation that it needs a strip-down and repair.
I find Mr. Sherer at the far end of the scale, and his prices reflect that.
...Vick
Most of my experience is with Leica M's, and there are known points that need maintenance and re-alignment, so, they get the attention. But it is not a full strip-down and rebuild, unless it is warranted. I've also done the full strip-down, but that is after doing a thorough diagnosis and confirmation that it needs a strip-down and repair.
I find Mr. Sherer at the far end of the scale, and his prices reflect that.
...Vick
Richard G
Veteran
My 1958 M2 seemed pretty much perfect from 1977 to 2006 when the 1/2 second speed started hanging up. I was referred by a photo.net M2 owner to a Melbourne expert, born and trained in Wetzlar. In discussing with him whether to get the camera serviced his proposal was that deficient lubricant might see my camera seize or malfunction at some point when that might be inconvenient. He asked me whether the 1/30s was screechy. It was. I sent the camera. It came back with all speeds running smoothly, the rewind knob not just spinning magically in freewheel, but a clutch like balance in action moving film that made rewinding much much easier, and the advance was smoother than I ever had experienced it. And the 1/30s was now a low pitched th-ch. Cost $350. Regrets: none. Unless you've rewound film in a new MP most M3 and M2 users may not know how the M knurled rewind really can work. I got the camera originally with 27-1-65 pencilled inside the baseplate, perhaps its first service. Jorg reckoned 15-20 years would be fine for the next service.
Sure there must be sheisters, but there are others who love working on these cameras and know what they are doing and could not cut corners because it's not in their nature.
Sure there must be sheisters, but there are others who love working on these cameras and know what they are doing and could not cut corners because it's not in their nature.
FrankS
Registered User
I'm thinking that in car terms, mr.s is a "body off" restoration.
pismo923
Established
Is there truth to his assertion that there is no universally accepted scope of work that defines the CLA? I gather that a CLA can be had for about $150 and upwards to $300. Is the scope of work different? Why can one person get the camera back to you in one week and others take in some cases a year?
back alley
IMAGES
remember, he only works on contax machines.
FrankS
Registered User
In some cases all the work is done by a single person, in other cases there are a number of technicians.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
From http://www.rogerandfrances.com/short/z short schrift archive.html, a few posts back:
At one extreme, a ’CLA’ -- clean, lubricate and adjust -- is a classic ‘strip, clean and overhaul’, in which the camera is stripped to its component parts, all of which are examined and, if they are out of specification, replaced.
At the other extreme, there are reliable reports of repairers who ‘CLA’ cameras by sluicing out the works with a solvent: adding lots of unsuitable lubricant; and adjusting the speeds by winding up the tension to disguise the fact that the bearings are still mired in the sludge that the solvent failed to remove.
Done properly, a strip, clean and overhaul can restore a camera to ‘as new’ working condition, with a much prolonged life in front of it. Conversely, a cheap sluice, lube and over-tension (‘SLOT’) can actually shorten the life of the camera.
Obviously, the proper job takes far longer. Unfortunately, this does not necessarily have any bearing on what the camera technician charges. Nor, alas, has it always much to do with his reputation. If the camera is basically in good order to begin with, it doesn’t need a CLA. An unscrupulous but good repairer need do little or nothing, and a bad repairer shouldn’t do much harm. In either case, the customer may well be delighted. It’s just when the camera needs repair that differences really begin to show. A good repair may often be a better investment than a cheap CLA.
Cheers,
R.
At one extreme, a ’CLA’ -- clean, lubricate and adjust -- is a classic ‘strip, clean and overhaul’, in which the camera is stripped to its component parts, all of which are examined and, if they are out of specification, replaced.
At the other extreme, there are reliable reports of repairers who ‘CLA’ cameras by sluicing out the works with a solvent: adding lots of unsuitable lubricant; and adjusting the speeds by winding up the tension to disguise the fact that the bearings are still mired in the sludge that the solvent failed to remove.
Done properly, a strip, clean and overhaul can restore a camera to ‘as new’ working condition, with a much prolonged life in front of it. Conversely, a cheap sluice, lube and over-tension (‘SLOT’) can actually shorten the life of the camera.
Obviously, the proper job takes far longer. Unfortunately, this does not necessarily have any bearing on what the camera technician charges. Nor, alas, has it always much to do with his reputation. If the camera is basically in good order to begin with, it doesn’t need a CLA. An unscrupulous but good repairer need do little or nothing, and a bad repairer shouldn’t do much harm. In either case, the customer may well be delighted. It’s just when the camera needs repair that differences really begin to show. A good repair may often be a better investment than a cheap CLA.
Cheers,
R.
bgb
Well-known
A full rebuild on my Yashica 124G is going to come it at $500 ... old cameras might be cheap but competent technicians are not.
pismo923
Established
DNG
Film Friendly
I always believe that if you are truly using it, then. Repair is well worth the cost. A 124G may not be sold for over $500 with an overhaul, but, to the one who uses it a lot, it is money well spent.
I have used lenses repaired, even though their worth may be less. But I use them.
I have used lenses repaired, even though their worth may be less. But I use them.
Platinum RF
Well-known
agour
Established
I dont really think a 'cla' is something hard to do. Sure it could just be a simple clean out, re-setting the lens to infinity and lubricating a few gears. If your buying a £80 camera that has been cla'd, do you really expect the guy to have spent more than 2 hours fixing it?
If I was buying a cla I would expect to pay say £100. For a full overhaul it would be at least triple that. You realistically need to think of the man hours it takes to fix a camera, someone with that level of skill isnt going to work for £5 an hour.
If I was buying a cla I would expect to pay say £100. For a full overhaul it would be at least triple that. You realistically need to think of the man hours it takes to fix a camera, someone with that level of skill isnt going to work for £5 an hour.
kshapero
South Florida Man
So I guess the question comes down to who out there does "real" CLA's? For those of us who will never do this ourselves, who can we trust?
Benjamin Marks
Veteran
I read the text you quoted on H. Scherer's website once and laughed. It makes perfect sense as he seems to think he's the only tech who can work on the cameras he services. I am sure he does a fine job and charges accordingly. I have had very good experiences with Sherry Krauter, Don Goldberg and Frank Marshman. They tell you what they are going to do and then they do it. Sherry even sends you back the parts she replaces so that you can see their condition. Every camera is different and I would not expect some sort of universal definition of a "CLA" any more than I would expect the 150,000 mile service (and particulars) for my car to be the same as my neighbor's. Hey, I needed a ball joint -- he needs a strut. I will say that every piece of equipment that I have sent to the above repair people came back working to spec and kept clicking away for a good long while. And not every old camera or lens needs a CLA. You can buy a pretty cheap shutter tester and see whether you shutter is within 1/3 of a stop at all speeds, you can "burn" a roll of film and see whether the frame-spacing is off. You can work the camera's controls and see whether they are gummy or sticky, ditto foam seals.
bgb
Well-known
I doubt that I will be subjecting it to heavy useage, I also doubt that even the pot metal parts will fail with my gentle touch, I'm not rough on cameras.:angel:
Mostly I went ahead with it as I like the TLR handling, the large negative and I want an old camera I can trust.
When I was talking to the tech about my camera he told me he had a Rolleiflex on the bench that had been CLA d by an amateur and he was trying to fix it and soak up all the excess oil. Seems not all techs have high standards I'm just glad mine does.
Mostly I went ahead with it as I like the TLR handling, the large negative and I want an old camera I can trust.
When I was talking to the tech about my camera he told me he had a Rolleiflex on the bench that had been CLA d by an amateur and he was trying to fix it and soak up all the excess oil. Seems not all techs have high standards I'm just glad mine does.
Chris Sherlock
Established
The term 'CLA' means many different things to many different people. When I CLA someone's Retina camera, for example, it always includes a complete strip-down, clean and reassembly of the shutter and rangefinder, usually involves the same for the film advance and focus helical, depending on condition, and quite commonly involves stripping the camera down to the chassis to clean out any sand and grit.
I don't expect a customer to be able to accurately determine how much work will be required, often that cannot be determined until the camera is disassembled anyway.
I quote the same price regardless and only charge extra is some significant part, say the shutter-cocking rack needs replacement.
It should be kept in mind that these classic cameras we all love, didn't actually need such comprehensive repair treatment back when they were still nearly new, and were well withing their expected working life, which was probably considered to be anything up to twenty years.
What was called a 'full overhaul' back when I was learning my trade would have included considerably more parts replacement, simply because discretion wasn't needed when shiny, new parts were freely available. Now a repairer has to use their experience to carefully decide what part to replace, and what will continue to give good service even if it not a shiny as a new one.
Certainly, even a full overhaul didn't require as much actual work when the cameras were relatively new, cameras just weren't as worn-out. An overhaul was usually in order only when the camera was full of sand.
Regards, Chris
I don't expect a customer to be able to accurately determine how much work will be required, often that cannot be determined until the camera is disassembled anyway.
I quote the same price regardless and only charge extra is some significant part, say the shutter-cocking rack needs replacement.
It should be kept in mind that these classic cameras we all love, didn't actually need such comprehensive repair treatment back when they were still nearly new, and were well withing their expected working life, which was probably considered to be anything up to twenty years.
What was called a 'full overhaul' back when I was learning my trade would have included considerably more parts replacement, simply because discretion wasn't needed when shiny, new parts were freely available. Now a repairer has to use their experience to carefully decide what part to replace, and what will continue to give good service even if it not a shiny as a new one.
Certainly, even a full overhaul didn't require as much actual work when the cameras were relatively new, cameras just weren't as worn-out. An overhaul was usually in order only when the camera was full of sand.
Regards, Chris
nobbylon
Veteran
It depends on the camera. I see ads for MP's that have been in for cla's! How can they need cla's? OK I'm sure some have been in the wars but not the shelf queens I've seen. A cla on one of these is going to be a quick speed check with a token lube of a couple of lube points and a rangefinder adjustment.
An old M2 that's never been opened? a different story. It will more than likely need the inner core removed from the shell to clean out debris etc, remove old lube and then get put back together.
I like it when I've sent Nikon's off to Sover Wong who takes photos of his process before and after. Mirror box removal, complete cleaning out, removal of mould etc. His cla's are the real deal.
Remember that a lot of mechanisms are complete units and don't need to be taken apart unless damaged. A good example is a slow speed mechanism in an M or a self timer. Whenever I've taken M's apart, and I'm talking about M2, M3 and M4, there is usually minor dust, the odd cob web, some sand and grit and occasionally a bit of rust but not a lot!
A cla should be just that. If it needs cleaning then it should be, if it needs lubing then lubed and after all that an adjustment so it's up to spec.
An old M2 that's never been opened? a different story. It will more than likely need the inner core removed from the shell to clean out debris etc, remove old lube and then get put back together.
I like it when I've sent Nikon's off to Sover Wong who takes photos of his process before and after. Mirror box removal, complete cleaning out, removal of mould etc. His cla's are the real deal.
Remember that a lot of mechanisms are complete units and don't need to be taken apart unless damaged. A good example is a slow speed mechanism in an M or a self timer. Whenever I've taken M's apart, and I'm talking about M2, M3 and M4, there is usually minor dust, the odd cob web, some sand and grit and occasionally a bit of rust but not a lot!
A cla should be just that. If it needs cleaning then it should be, if it needs lubing then lubed and after all that an adjustment so it's up to spec.