What am I doing wrong?

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VTHokiEE

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This is a carry over from a thread I recently posted about my Bessa R dying. So I've been having very mixed results with developing 35mm film and I'm not certain exactly what I'm doing wrong. My "darkroom" is not completely dark, so I've ordered a changing bag to use to hopefully assist if that is any part of the problem. These images are Tri-X shot at 400 iso and developed in HC-110h at 68-70F for approximately 11 minutes I forget the inversions on the first shot, but the 2nd two were two quick inversions every 2 minutes. Here is a shot from a roll that came out great:


0018_030 by VTHokiEE06, on Flickr

and here are two from a roll that didn't come out great in my opinion:


0025_Scan-140408-0009 by VTHokiEE06, on Flickr

and


0025_Scan-140408-0012 by VTHokiEE06, on Flickr

Both of the second pictures (especially the beach picture) are so much noisier than the first picture. Also one of the "bad" shots looks like I over agitated (the bottom is so much lighter).

My thoughts are:
"darkroom" not dark enough so I'm creating a base fog (but not sure why the first shot worked, maybe I was quicker?)
Over agitation, I can't seem to figure agitation out I seem to frequently get this whenever I invert (fast or slow).
Finally, bad dev times or poor exposure (the beach very well could have been under exposed). Typically on the beach I go +1, but I don't think I did this on that roll.

Any thoughts or suggestions?

Thanks a lot!

PS - Would pictures of the negatives help? If so whats the best way to take a picture of them?
 
It's been a long time since I used dilution H so I would have to look back at my own records, but MD shows a developing time of only 9 minutes with Tri-X and dilution H. At 70F, that would mean a developing time of about 8 minutes. So, my thought is that you over developed the negs and because of this, when your scanner tried to compensate to what it felt was proper exposure, it brought out the grain more.
 
Your methods seem to be imprecise. Bring the temperature of ALL fluids (dev, stop, fix, wash) to the exact temp you want to work at. I use 68 Deg. "60 to 70" is not acceptably precise. Develop for EXACTLY the recommended time, not "approximately..." Be gentle when you agitate. I use two inversions every 30 seconds (D-76.) I think tightening up your methods will help you a lot. Then when you feel the need to improve your results, change only ONE thing at a time so you know what made the difference. Be patient.
Edit: Should have said "68-70 deg." Not 60-70!
 
Vics said:
Your methods seem to be imprecise. Bring the temperature of ALL fluids (dev, stop, fix, wash) to the exact temp you want to work at. I use 68 Deg. "60 to 70" is not acceptably precise. Develop for EXACTLY the recommended time, not "approximately..." Be gentle when you agitate. I use two inversions every 30 seconds (D-76.) I think tightening up your methods will help you a lot. Then when you feel the need to improve your results, change only ONE thing at a time so you know what made the difference. Be patient.
Click to expand...

I will be more precise, but to be fair it was 68-70 not 60-70 ;). What I typically do is cool down a big bucket of water and then simply go from there. I'll try to be more of a stickler though.
 
Grain size increases with increased development time regardless of the dilution. Try a more concentrated developer solution, such as dilution b. For normal development I give trix six and a half minutes at 20 degrees C. (I too get it with in plus or minus 1 degree C.)

When I get this extreme grain look, it is usually due to being way on the plus side.
 
What you came out with considering the film used & your dilution, the shots are not too bad. A changing bag won't help with grain & that seems to be your biggest complant. Try dilution B when using HC-110. If you wish a fine grain look with Tri-X or any other film try Ilford Perceptol. Love that stuff.

BTW I can see no evidence of any fogging.
 
Generally speaking:
- you need to agitate regularly - once a minute, or once every 30 secs if development time is below 6 mins
- try to control time and temperature, and do everything in a repeatable manner
- HC110 is a great developer for Tri X - I find it is better to shoot it at EI 250 and develop around 8 mins in dilution H

Tri X in HC 110

20124409 by mfogiel, on Flickr
 
mfogiel said:
Generally speaking:
- you need to agitate regularly - once a minute, or once every 30 secs if development time is below 6 mins
- try to control time and temperature, and do everything in a repeatable manner
- HC110 is a great developer for Tri X - I find it is better to shoot it at EI 250 and develop around 8 mins in dilution H

Tri X in HC 110

20124409 by mfogiel, on Flickr
Click to expand...
Now that looks really nice. It's shots like this is why I don't give up on my film development when I blow it.
 
VTHokiEE said:
I will be more precise, but to be fair it was 68-70 not 60-70 ;). What I typically do is cool down a big bucket of water and then simply go from there. I'll try to be more of a stickler though.
Click to expand...
Pure typo on my part. I meant that a two-degree variance may be significant.
 
I regularly use HC 110 dil. h for Tri-X, and my results show less visible grain than yours. First, you should definitely get a changing bag. Second, try shortening up your development time. For Tri-X at 400, my notes indicate a development time of 9 minutes in dil. h. However, I get the best results with Tri-X and dil. h when I shoot the film at iso 250 and develop for 11:30 mins. I agitate 30 seconds initial, with three inversions every three minutes. And I develop precisely at 68 degrees F. (So I agree with the advice above to be more precise in your development procedures). Following this procedure, I get lovely smooth tones from Tri-X without excessive grain.

If getting precise temperature is too much of a bother, may I suggest giving Diafine a try? Diafine is not fussy as to temperature, and you can reuse it (up to a point). I shoot Tri-X at iso 800 in Diafine if I'm not using a filter; if I'm using a yellow filter, I set my meter at 400. Tri-X, Diafine, and a yellow filter can give you great, smooth tones, without excessive grain.
 
Thank you all for your advice, especially using Dilution B. I'll shoot a few rolls over the next few weeks and try to put it into practice.

Bingley said:
For Tri-X at 400, my notes indicate a development time of 9 minutes in dil. h. However, I get the best results with Tri-X and dil. h when I shoot the film at iso 250 and develop for 11:30 mins.
Click to expand...

This is confusing to me, wouldn't an higher ISO (400) require more dev time then a lower iso (250)?
 
mfogiel said:
Generally speaking:
- you need to agitate regularly - once a minute, or once every 30 secs if development time is below 6 mins
- try to control time and temperature, and do everything in a repeatable manner
- HC110 is a great developer for Tri X - I find it is better to shoot it at EI 250 and develop around 8 mins in dilution H

Tri X in HC 110

20124409 by mfogiel, on Flickr
Click to expand...

This is beautiful and exactly the result I'm striving for.
 
VTHokiEE said:
Thank you all for your advice, especially using Dilution B. I'll shoot a few rolls over the next few weeks and try to put it into practice.



This is confusing to me, wouldn't an higher ISO (400) require more dev time then a lower iso (250)?
Click to expand...

No. Exactly the opposite. Here is an example of Tr-X exoised at 250 and developed in dil h for 11:30 mins using the procedure in my previous post:


Jardim Botanico by bingley0522, on Flickr
 
Bingley said:
VTHokiEE said:
Thank you all for your advice, especially using Dilution B. I'll shoot a few rolls over the next few weeks and try to put it into practice.



This is confusing to me, wouldn't an higher ISO (400) require more dev time then a lower iso (250)?
Click to expand...

No. Exactly the opposite.
Click to expand...

Wait, what? Given the same developer, same dilution and same film more development does give more 'iso'.
 
When I shoot Tri-X at 250, I'm pulling it one stop which means I'm exposing it more than I would if I shot it at 400. So I adjust to compensate for additional exposure by increasing the dev time. I do the same with TMax films in dil h: 10 mins if I'm rating the TMax400 at 400, 11:30 mins if I'm rating the same film at 250. Slower iso films require longer dev times. I'm not enough of technical expert to expkain why (I'm sure Roger Hicks could explain it), but I know from the results that this works.
 
Bingley said:
When I shoot Tri-X at 250, I'm pulling it one stop which means I'm exposing it more than I would if I shot it at 400. So I adjust to compensate for additional exposure by increasing the dev time. I do the same with TMax films in dil h: 10 mins if I'm rating the TMax400 at 400, 11:30 mins if I'm rating the same film at 250. Slower iso films require longer dev times. I'm not enough of technical expert to expkain why (I'm sure Roger Hicks could explain it), but I know from the results that this works.
Click to expand...

Hi Steve,

I'm confused by this as well. Getting back to Tri-x, shooting box speed has a standard development time of 9 minutes. When you rate the film at 250 you increase the exposure given to the film. This to me means that you would therefore need to decrease developing time, rather than increasing. I would think that rating at 250 and increasing development by almost 30% would lead to negs that are over exposed/developed.
 
My approach to developing TMax and Tri-X films is heavily influenced by the thread below. I generally follow the same approach except that I generally use straight HC 110 dil. h and don't usually blend in Rodinal. My development times when exposing at 250 are very close to John Carter's, and I follow the same minimalist agitation procedure.

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=100287

I will post some sample results in a moment.
 
I believe all one should do is consult the "digitaltruth" site and they can compare the film used , at the exposure they give it and the dilution chosen with the suggested development
time. Should help clarify the discussion.
Peter
 
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