shadowfox
Darkroom printing lives
Abazz, any pictures from the Mamiya six? I've never seen one with the Mamiya Sekor lens, always with the Zuiko.
Speaking of Zuikos, Olympus has a series of folder cameras as well, but they are super rare.
Speaking of Zuikos, Olympus has a series of folder cameras as well, but they are super rare.
furcafe
Veteran
Very cool, & educational. I didn't know anything about these Mamiya folders.
Abbazz said:
jlw
Rangefinder camera pedant
oftheherd said:
I haven't seen the Mamiya 6 Automat mentioned in the later post (although I'd love to get a look at one, or even buy one at a reasonable price) but I can tell you that the older Mamiya 6 has a somewhat different focusing mechanism than that described.
The film plane is moved outward by cams just as you describe. The film plane is supposed to be held tightly against these cams by pressure of a simple spring (maybe two springs, I can't remember for sure) which is what draws the film plane back inward as you focus toward infinity. It sounds as if the springs have escaped from your camera, probably during some past amateur repair. Unfortunately, I have no idea what you could do about it aside from finding another earlier 6 to use as a parts source.
Meanwhile, I'll confirm from experience that the pre-Automat 6 is a terrific camera that gives excellent results. You do have to use the red window to line up the first frame, but after that it has auto film stop while advancing. The shutter must be cocked manually, but this does eliminate the potentially fragile mechanism that has to run from the body to the front of the lens on the Automat type.
Speaking of fragile mechanisms, the big advantage of the 6's film plane focusing is that it eliminates the complex and delicate mechanism needed to couple the lens to the rangefinder on most folding RFs. That mechanism not only needs to reach a long distance and move very precisely, it also has to hinge out of the way when the camera is folded. (The alternative is an optically coupled system like that on the Zeiss Super Ikonta B, but that limits the camera to front-element focusing, which isn't as good optically as unit focusing in which the entire lens moves.) Mamiya neatly sidestepped the whole problem by moving the focusing system back into the camera body, where the rangefinder already resides, thus allowing them to be joined by a direct, simple coupling system that doesn't need to fold. Good thinking!
PS -- The Zuiko lenses on most of the older 6es are quite good, and the manually cocked Seikosha shutter is super-reliable. The 6 I used to own had a strange, funky external flash sync mechanism built into a little housing above the lens, but I suppose later ones had internal sync.
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raid
Dad Photographer
I would add the Franka Solida IIIC [I think it is C] to the list of excellent RF MF cameras. Juergen Kreckel places it in the same league as the Agfa Super Isolette. The Schneider lens is not bad at all. The Solida has a RF but it is not coupled.
It is best to separate vintage cameras from modern cameras in this discussion. The Fuji 645 are modern cameras and they are hard to beat.
It is best to separate vintage cameras from modern cameras in this discussion. The Fuji 645 are modern cameras and they are hard to beat.
Solinar
Analog Preferred
Raid - does the Franka Solida IIIC have an Automat or similar film advance which stops the winder automatically at the next frame?
Read the original poster's question.
Read the original poster's question.
Abbazz
6x9 and be there!
shadowfox said:
I'll try to scan some negs taken with this camera an post them here.
Cheers!
Abbazz
Abbazz
6x9 and be there!
noci said:
I am no historian, but I don't think any shared development deal was needed to copy a German camera design after WWII. As far as I know, all German patents were confiscated by the Allies as war reparations and were licensed to companies worldwide.
Cheers,
Abbazz
kuzano
Veteran
More Mamiya automat information (II I believe). The pics here show the springs that secure the film plane platform to the rotating cams that do the focusing. The cams are geared under the bottom cover of the camera to rotate in concert with each other. The wire springs shown, old the film plane firmly against the cams so that as the cams move back into the camera body the back comes in with it. The other pictures show that you thread the film between the two tabs on the back frame. Then you slide a pressure plate in to form a flat surface for the film. I believe this to the the flattest film holding mechanism I have seen in most old folders.
I concur on the Mam/Sekor vs the Zuiko lenses. I have had 4 sixes with the Zuiko and 3 with the M/S. Focus and sharpness hard to tell apart. The later lens handles flare better.
The counting and stop mechanism is fragile. One good hit on the Wind-on and you may have a non functional wind-on. The automats I have had (3) had one good functioning counter, stop, and shutter cocking mechanism. I did find that I could strip out all the film advance counter/stop mechanism on the other two, use the ruby window and still have automatic shutter cocking, with attendant double exposure prevention. If you do want to double expose, There is a shutter cocking button that you can manually use on the top of the lens.
Every Mamiya Six folder I have owned has had ROCK SOLID front standards, easily adjustable rangefinder and produced consistent and exceptional result. The camera is a Tank however, falling into the same weight and size categories as the Zeiss bodies. Out of the seven, all but one had excellent original bellows. The one I had a bellows replaced on was done exceptional well by Jurgen Krenckel (Certo6 on eBay).
I concur on the Mam/Sekor vs the Zuiko lenses. I have had 4 sixes with the Zuiko and 3 with the M/S. Focus and sharpness hard to tell apart. The later lens handles flare better.
The counting and stop mechanism is fragile. One good hit on the Wind-on and you may have a non functional wind-on. The automats I have had (3) had one good functioning counter, stop, and shutter cocking mechanism. I did find that I could strip out all the film advance counter/stop mechanism on the other two, use the ruby window and still have automatic shutter cocking, with attendant double exposure prevention. If you do want to double expose, There is a shutter cocking button that you can manually use on the top of the lens.
Every Mamiya Six folder I have owned has had ROCK SOLID front standards, easily adjustable rangefinder and produced consistent and exceptional result. The camera is a Tank however, falling into the same weight and size categories as the Zeiss bodies. Out of the seven, all but one had excellent original bellows. The one I had a bellows replaced on was done exceptional well by Jurgen Krenckel (Certo6 on eBay).
kuzano
Veteran
More Pics of the Mamiya Six Automat
Abbazz
6x9 and be there!
jlw said:
Prices are highly variable for the Mamiya Six series cameras. McKeown's states $120-180 for an Automat II, but I have never seen one sell for less than $250 and a mint one can reach $500 (from a regular seller, not from Arsenal-photo.com
). Cheers!
elaydad
Member
that strange, funky external flash sync mechanism built into a little housing above the lens was that X or only M sync?
kuzano
Veteran
elaydad said:
The little red tab switch you see below the socket has MFX settings, on a Seikosha-MX shutter with b--1-1/500th
jlw
Rangefinder camera pedant
elaydad said:
I can't remember for sure -- in fact, I don't recall that I ever actually used it -- but I think it might have been X. It was quite a simple design, obviously designed as a factory add-on to give sync capability to a shutter with no internal sync mechanism.
There were two electrical switch contact strips, secured at one end to an insulating block, and a short pin installed on the inner end of the shutter cocking lever. When you released the shutter, the pin would complete the circuit momentarily as it passed between the contacts. Of course this wouldn't have been necessary on later models with internally synchronized shutters.
Incidentally, while the Automat's frame counter mechanism may have been fragile (as noted in a previous post) my recollection of my pre-Automat model was that its counter was reasonably rugged. It was also a simple mechanism, consisting of not much more than a wheel with a tooth for each frame stop, and a spring-loaded catch that would halt the wheel when you had turned the knob far enough to reach the next frame.
All this seems to suggest that while the Automats were the most advanced and sophisticated models, someone looking for a Mamiya 6 to use might be served just as well by looking for one of the earlier ones with a manually-cocked shutter. These would be less expensive, have less to go wrong, and would still offer similar operating characteristics and picture quality.
Abbazz
6x9 and be there!
jlw said:
Yes, as any early flash synch mechanism, there is no provision for extra delay, so it is X-synch only.
jlw said:
The shutter cocking mechanism seems quite sturdy. It is a nice feature to have on a folder and it doesn't feel like it's likely to fail. As stated by Kuzano -- who seems to have much experience with these cameras -- the weak point is the film advance counter/stop mechanism, not the shutter cocking.
The bright-frame combined finder on the Automat-II is much bigger and brighter than on the previous models and it's a pleasure to use. So, if you have the opportunity to buy one of these superb cameras for a reasonable price, don't turn it down.
Cheers!
Abbazz
oftheherd
Veteran
kuzano said:
Thanks so much! That is what mine is missing. Now I have hope. I will check with the machinists at work to see if one of them can fabricate a set of springs for me. I now understand the troughs in the cams too.
Mine is apparently one of the earlier models as the Seikosha shutter doesn't seem to be self cocking, and in fact has a lever to cock the shutter. I might get this back in to working order after all. Then I can put something else in the display cabinet.
Thanks again.
Abbazz
6x9 and be there!
Will,
Here are two pictures taken with the Mamiya Six Automat-II (Mamiya Sekor 75/3.5 lens wide open):
Sorry for the bad scan. As you can see, this lens is pretty sharp wide open, with great contrast, but the bokeh is a bit disturbing just like the 75mm lens on the newer Mamiya 6.
Cheers!
Abbazz
Here are two pictures taken with the Mamiya Six Automat-II (Mamiya Sekor 75/3.5 lens wide open):
Sorry for the bad scan. As you can see, this lens is pretty sharp wide open, with great contrast, but the bokeh is a bit disturbing
just like the 75mm lens on the newer Mamiya 6.Cheers!
Abbazz
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FrankS
Registered User
There are also a few Voightlander (sp?) Perkeo MF folding cameras. There is a model with a RF. I have one without RF. Once the initial frame is positioned via the red window, the rest is automatic.
kuzano
Veteran
Two things here... I will look through my parts and see if I have a set of the springs to hold the film plan bracket against those cams. Not very sure I have a set but will look. If you need better pics, let me know, but you seem to have the idea. the springs ride in those troughs and it's about an 1/8th of an inch pull up on that center hump to engage the hook on the film plane bracket. Spring wire for sure. One of the wires that comes to mind is the wire we use to use for control push rods in radio control airplanes. Comes in varying thickness. Hobby shop stuff for sure.
second, I have been lurking intently for one of those rangefinder Perkeos. I think they are called Perkeo E. Have seen them occasionally but I won't pay what theyre selling for. I have a Perkeo II with a color skopar lens on it. Wonderful small 6X6 that produces great images. I can put an accessory rangefinder in the flash shoe for a fraction of what Perkeo E rangefinder models sell for. Last one I saw sold for over $500. Often sell for more than Bessa II's with the Skopar.
second, I have been lurking intently for one of those rangefinder Perkeos. I think they are called Perkeo E. Have seen them occasionally but I won't pay what theyre selling for. I have a Perkeo II with a color skopar lens on it. Wonderful small 6X6 that produces great images. I can put an accessory rangefinder in the flash shoe for a fraction of what Perkeo E rangefinder models sell for. Last one I saw sold for over $500. Often sell for more than Bessa II's with the Skopar.
Solinar
Analog Preferred
The Perkeo E has a non-coupled RF and NO AUTOMATIC FILM ADVANCE. It uses the red window for every frame.
The Perkeo II on the other hand lacks a built-in RF, but it is probably the smallest 6x6 camera with a mostly automatic film wind.
BTW - Those are some nice crisp shots with that Mamiya Six Automat II - Once google caches this thread, the price of them will probably double.
The Perkeo II on the other hand lacks a built-in RF, but it is probably the smallest 6x6 camera with a mostly automatic film wind.
BTW - Those are some nice crisp shots with that Mamiya Six Automat II - Once google caches this thread, the price of them will probably double.
jlw
Rangefinder camera pedant
kuzano said:
Any good hardware store will carry a large selection of springs, and some of these springs will have a long straight wire section. (If you can't find a suitable one at a hardware store, try going to an auto parts store and looking for throttle return springs.)
If you can find a spring that has about the right diameter of wire and a straight section long enough to cut out the piece you need, you are all set. WHILE WEARING EYE PROTECTION, snip out a straight section of the spring wire, then put the correct bends in it with two pairs of pliers (ideally one locking pair to hold the middle and one thin pair to do the bending) and you should have a functioning focus mechanism pretty quickly.