paulfish4570
Veteran
roberto, you are talented, bright, bilingual, and you communicate well. i'd guess car design is like architecture: jobs that are meaningful are hard to come by. but a business or management degree with a minor in language (chinese perhaps?), and perhaps an mba would open many doors ...
kbg32
neo-romanticist
What can you expect? Not to be a downer, in a word, "nothing". Expectations come from what is inside you. School allows you the time to explore and experiment. Something you'll always wish for more once you start working full-time.
Frontman
Well-known
I live in Tokyo, which is rated as the most expensive city in the world, yet the average national income in Japan (which is by far the highest in Asia), is well below America's average national income. American companies pay much more than Japanese companies, and their hiring/promotion structure is performance-based rather than the antiquated, seniority-based system used in Japan.
Most liberal arts graduates do indeed get paid little-to-nothing when and if they find entry-level work as artists, writers, or photographers. My degree in English has not been of much substantial benefit to me, other than the fact that is a degree. I would have much better spent my time studying something more practical. Failing to find any meaningful work as a writer I eventually found myself in finance.
Moriturii
Well-known
I haven't read the thread fully, it seems a lot of back and forth. I haven't gone to photo school, and never will but what you can look forward to in photo school is the mileu of photography! Meeting all these exciting good and bad photographers that you can change all the ideas and pictures you ever had getting new assignments from your teachers etc this is surely what's good about "studying" photography at school. You are always knee deep in deadlines, shot this shoot that, deadline tomorrow, spend hours in the darkroom till 3am etc. THAT is what will be great about it I would've thought.
If you are "teaching yourself" you can be as lazy as you like, but in photo school you better get going!
If you are "teaching yourself" you can be as lazy as you like, but in photo school you better get going!
Jamie123
Veteran
A question that hasn't been raised yet is what kind of photography would you like to do? Commercial, i.e. get hired to take photos or art, i.e. get paid for prints? I know this distinction might be a bit simplistic but I think it's important to consider which one you want to do (and even if you want to do both, which do you prefer).
If you want to work commercially, let's say as a car photographer, you will most likely be better off trying to find a few good car photographers to assist for. You'll learn a lot and once you're experienced and know a few photographers you can make a decent amount of money. The key then is to not get trapped in the assistant role and neglect to work on your own career as a photographer.
If you want to do art photography and sell prints then going to art school might be useful as it'll give you time to focus on your projects and be around like-minded people.
Also, there's the question of what you pay for University where you live. In some countries it's free, in some it's cheap, in some it's fairly expensive and in some it costs a fortune.
If you want to work commercially, let's say as a car photographer, you will most likely be better off trying to find a few good car photographers to assist for. You'll learn a lot and once you're experienced and know a few photographers you can make a decent amount of money. The key then is to not get trapped in the assistant role and neglect to work on your own career as a photographer.
If you want to do art photography and sell prints then going to art school might be useful as it'll give you time to focus on your projects and be around like-minded people.
Also, there's the question of what you pay for University where you live. In some countries it's free, in some it's cheap, in some it's fairly expensive and in some it costs a fortune.
Glass Addict
Established
Just speaking on my case,
I went to a school where the curriculum was such that I had to study for 4 months, work at a company for 4 months, and repeat until graduation. The school had liason with companies in many places. Companies participate because it was relatively cheaper labour and they were scouting for future prospects as well.
It made university something like 5 years with no summer breaks (this one was tough), but in the end, you don't miss out on employment while in school and gain experience in companies where you can only dream of working until you have a university degree. On top, I didn't have to borrow money to pay for tuition as it was 4 months on 4 months paid work.
Most people I know went to work for one of the companies they worked at and were scouted in their fourth year before graduation. I realize there are not many universities out there that do this, but at the same time, other universities have started to catch on and doing something similar... at least in Canada. It maybe beneficial to look for similar programs in your area as well.
I think of University and College as an investment. You are putting in time, money and effort at a critical part in your life, the 20's. Therefore, you need to look at what you expect to get out of it as well. Like those mentioned above, I suggest going with the education that both serves your interests and benefits financially.
It's a mistake to
- study something you enjoy but nearly impossible to make living with.
- study something you don't enjoy but make a decent living.
Reality is that certain degrees help to provide you with more job options than others. It's about finding the right balance and it would be somethere in the middle of the two mistakes mentioned above.
It's also a good thing that most people have more than one interest.
Good Luck.
I went to a school where the curriculum was such that I had to study for 4 months, work at a company for 4 months, and repeat until graduation. The school had liason with companies in many places. Companies participate because it was relatively cheaper labour and they were scouting for future prospects as well.
It made university something like 5 years with no summer breaks (this one was tough), but in the end, you don't miss out on employment while in school and gain experience in companies where you can only dream of working until you have a university degree. On top, I didn't have to borrow money to pay for tuition as it was 4 months on 4 months paid work.
Most people I know went to work for one of the companies they worked at and were scouted in their fourth year before graduation. I realize there are not many universities out there that do this, but at the same time, other universities have started to catch on and doing something similar... at least in Canada. It maybe beneficial to look for similar programs in your area as well.
I think of University and College as an investment. You are putting in time, money and effort at a critical part in your life, the 20's. Therefore, you need to look at what you expect to get out of it as well. Like those mentioned above, I suggest going with the education that both serves your interests and benefits financially.
It's a mistake to
- study something you enjoy but nearly impossible to make living with.
- study something you don't enjoy but make a decent living.
Reality is that certain degrees help to provide you with more job options than others. It's about finding the right balance and it would be somethere in the middle of the two mistakes mentioned above.
It's also a good thing that most people have more than one interest.
Good Luck.
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jawarden
Well-known
I think you have your answer about photography, but you need to put the same effort toward understanding automotive design. Compare the number of automotive design graduates that are designing cars to the number unemployed, or working non-design jobs, for instance.
Photography is competitive but auto design is much more so; there are far fewer automotive designers than photographers of course, and only the very best in the world are trusted to design the most boring bits and pieces of a car. to style the exterior of a car (what most students think they'll be doing) is a complete pipe dream unless you have crazy skills - skills almost all professional designers lack.
Photography is competitive but auto design is much more so; there are far fewer automotive designers than photographers of course, and only the very best in the world are trusted to design the most boring bits and pieces of a car. to style the exterior of a car (what most students think they'll be doing) is a complete pipe dream unless you have crazy skills - skills almost all professional designers lack.
Frank Petronio
Well-known
If you want to prepare to become a successful photographer, then I would study a subject that you would want to photograph. Perhaps it is architecture, people and cultures (anthropology, sociology), geography, economics, history, the sciences.... ? But if you know something about a subject then you'd be better equipped to become the master of photographing it.
Salgado was an economist. It probably helped make him a great documentary photojournalist.
But spending four years to learn a skill, like photography, seems rather narrow and about three years too many. If you are passionate about photography, you will learn it on your own.
Of course if you are passionate about any subject you're luckier than most students, who seem to be only going through the motions to please their parents and expectations. Silly kids.
If you need a job to make a decent living while you develop as a photographer, some skilled jobs are somewhat recession-proof. Think in terms of being a plumber, which people will need as long as there is a civilization. When I was a ski bum, the plumber was the smartest guy in town - he only worked a few days a week, odd hours, made great money and could ski everyday.
Think in terms of demographics and the economy... I wouldn't want to be building homes right now, but maintenance of older homes will always be a viable business. Also consider that our population is aging and they will be the best customers, since the wealth is in their hands.
Industrial Design, including car design, is a hot college major right now. Colleges are in business to fill seats, and they love foreign students from well-off families who pay full-priced tuition. This does not mean that they have your best interests at heart and can place you in a career -- so I would consider all these things... automotive design may not be a "safe" major.
Salgado was an economist. It probably helped make him a great documentary photojournalist.
But spending four years to learn a skill, like photography, seems rather narrow and about three years too many. If you are passionate about photography, you will learn it on your own.
Of course if you are passionate about any subject you're luckier than most students, who seem to be only going through the motions to please their parents and expectations. Silly kids.
If you need a job to make a decent living while you develop as a photographer, some skilled jobs are somewhat recession-proof. Think in terms of being a plumber, which people will need as long as there is a civilization. When I was a ski bum, the plumber was the smartest guy in town - he only worked a few days a week, odd hours, made great money and could ski everyday.
Think in terms of demographics and the economy... I wouldn't want to be building homes right now, but maintenance of older homes will always be a viable business. Also consider that our population is aging and they will be the best customers, since the wealth is in their hands.
Industrial Design, including car design, is a hot college major right now. Colleges are in business to fill seats, and they love foreign students from well-off families who pay full-priced tuition. This does not mean that they have your best interests at heart and can place you in a career -- so I would consider all these things... automotive design may not be a "safe" major.
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Juan Valdenebro
Truth is beauty
If you're good at photography, you won't get more money because of a degree in photography... I cursed a career in photography: it took six years, and finding a job was not easy even with the degree... I found it after a few months, though, but lots of classmates didn't... After some years I had my own studio... Then I found out commercial photography had never been funny to me: seeing that, took me as many years as my career! So I did accept all I like in photography is walking the streets and souping film... Last year I decided I really wanted to live in a small town in Colombia and have a relaxed life, and with the help of my best friend -an architect- we designed my new house and a restaurant I felt like owning... Both are being built now, and this totally new game is being fun, and it will be a simple way to earn money and keep my spirit away from things related to earning money: I used to take commercial photography too seriously when I did it, and for some reason, I was not doing -constantly- the kind of shooting I really like... Not working in photography is great! From a degree in photography you can expect learning a few things: but it's just a half of it, and the other 50% can be learned working in photography only... I recommend you to use those years in other things instead of a degree in photography. Very good luck, Roberto!
Cheers,
Juan
Last year I decided I really wanted to live in a small town in Colombia and have a relaxed life, and with the help of my best friend -an architect- we designed my new house and a restaurant I felt like owning... Both are being built now, and this totally new game is being fun, and it will be a simple way to earn money and keep my spirit away from things related to earning money: I used to take commercial photography too seriously when I did it, and for some reason, I was not doing -constantly- the kind of shooting I really like... Not working in photography is great! From a degree in photography you can expect learning a few things: but it's just a half of it, and the other 50% can be learned working in photography only... I recommend you to use those years in other things instead of a degree in photography. Very good luck, Roberto!Cheers,
Juan
RanceEric
The name is Rance
I graduated with a degree in photography in 2010 and have yet to find work in the field.. I have been asked to do events/weddings/family photos/etc. but that doesn't really interest me at all. And you can do that with or without a degree.. That being said, in spite of not finding work that interests me yet, I still don't regret it. It's what I love to do. I will always love to do it, so it only made sense to go to school for it.
If it's what you love to do, I would say go for it. Or why not do both?
If it's what you love to do, I would say go for it. Or why not do both?
Yeah, I wish I knew the answer Roger, but I'm not exactly enamored with how the world works anyway. It just seems that many opportunities open up and it is quite silly since college is just big business. However, without photography, I wouldn't have finished college and probably wouldn't be where I am today (scraping by in an expensive city).
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jljohn
Well-known
Roger,
As I am sure you know, there is a world of difference between what is and what should be. The initial advice you questioned was, "What is more important is that you get a degree of some kind." It is a shame that our education system has come to this, but here we are. (I am in the US.) Your clips regarding showing yourself willing and able to work and having a track record utterly fail the hardworking and intelligent 18 or 21 year old who seeks a job but doesn't have a degree. From the perspective of a job seeker, what is most important is that you have a degree of some kind. Then the job seeker needs to be able to communicate why it is relevant to the prospective employer. (As an attorney, I am sure you understand that one could argue that almost any degree is somehow relevant to almost any job.)
Regarding what should be, I think that it's a shame that kids don't leave high school with developed analytical and writing skills, with exposure to a breadth of literature and history, and with fluent knowledge of at least one non-english language. But, most high schools rely on colleges to give kids the classical education that they should have been receiving all along. Hence, employers want to see a B.A. or a B.S. as some form of proof of the applicant's capability. Today, in the US, it seems that graduate programs are the first level of education that is designed to prepare you for a specific profession (caveat--I do recognize that bachelors degrees in education and engineering are common exceptions to this statement.)
All this to say that I think the advice "What is more important is that you get a degree of some kind" is generally sound in today's society, but I would add that the degree should be in something largely translatable to the field or fields the student is interested in pursuing as a career. But I also agree with your sentiment that "[You're] just not convinced that even a first degree should be essential for the sake of getting a job."
Jeremy
Well, it wasn't like I instantly got a good job... I had to work from the bottom up. However, the NYC area (I lived in NJ my first 36 years), has more opportunities that's for sure. And in all my time in brokerage firms and regulation, I've never met another person who went to art school.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Jeremy,
To be fair, I didn't question the advice. I specifically agreed with it. The 'why?' was more in the nature of 'how on earth did we get to this pass?'
I'm wondering if this question isn't a part of the current, somewhat incoherent, '99%' movement. It is entirely possible that 99%/OWS is a passing fad, but it is also possible that things may change -- and that this may be one of the changes that we see: the idea of not treating university as an (expensive, debt-fuelled) passport to a middle-class job.
Cheers,
R.
zauhar
Veteran
I didn't read every post, but I did want to ask the OP exactly what a degree in "car design" entails? If that means automotive engineering, it's a valuable piece of paper, since you can transfer engineering skills into other areas. If it's only design and ergonomics, then it's a variant of an art degree, and a highly specialized one at that. I can't imagine there are many jobs in that niche.
If the photography curriculum offers an emphasis in digital imaging, video and web design, that could actually be pretty valuable. People with strong skills in those areas can usually find work - the key phrase is STRONG skills, not just passing a course. You would need to build up a portfolio and make contacts while still in school.
In any event, in today's world I would not follow either path unless you can do so without taking on a massive debt. I read in one of the posts that you are in Mexico, I assume you are planning on a state school?
Randy
If the photography curriculum offers an emphasis in digital imaging, video and web design, that could actually be pretty valuable. People with strong skills in those areas can usually find work - the key phrase is STRONG skills, not just passing a course. You would need to build up a portfolio and make contacts while still in school.
In any event, in today's world I would not follow either path unless you can do so without taking on a massive debt. I read in one of the posts that you are in Mexico, I assume you are planning on a state school?
Randy
FalseDigital
BKK -> Tokyo
I can't speak for Japan as I've never worked for a Japanese company. I have however worked for Chinese and Thai companies, which I can definitely say pay more than any company I've ever dealt with in NYC. While I was living in NYC some of my friends were shooting as interns for free. I was lucky enough to be introduced to the editors of China Grazia, Elle, and Harpers. Which paid me to cover fashion week.
Today I was in the studio all day (in Bangkok) and while I wasn't shooting, my girlfriend was paid w/ her partner roughly $450 to bake a cake + cupcakes for the set of a Korean cosmetic editorial ad. Furthermore there was also a set designer that was paid separately. I've seen American companies just use interns for that stuff too (but not always)
Also, a very good friend of mine is a painter in Beijing. China elle offered her $2,000 USD to put her illustrations on a two page spread. While NYC Elle rarely ever pay more than $100 for any illustration.
Rayt
Nonplayer Character
FalseDigital
BKK -> Tokyo
I also have to say, just about every job I had in this industry was because someone was kind enough to introduce me to the right people. It really is about who you know. I'm sure if you got lucky enough be in the right place at the right time (and also have a strong body of work) you just might make some decent money in NYC. Might.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
I also have to say, just about every job I had in this industry was because someone was kind enough to introduce me to the right people. It really is about who you know. I'm sure if you got lucky enough be in the right place at the right time (and also have a strong body of work) you just might make some decent money in NYC. Might.
Seconded. A good contacts list is worth at least ten times as much as a 'good' school.
Cheers,
R.
Phil_F_NM
Camera hacker
Employment in the culinary arts?
Phil Forrest
(who's getting a degree in visual media journalism, ie photojournalism)
Phil Forrest
(who's getting a degree in visual media journalism, ie photojournalism)