What could cause grain to be great on roll, & suck on another roll? Same Film/ISO/Dev

Steve M. said:
I don't think your wash water temperature matters much, as the grain is fixed into the emulsion at that point. I once turned on the tap to wash my film in the tank for 30 minutes and accidentally turned on the hot water instead of the cold. That film sat in water that was over 115 degrees for a half hour and it came out perfect (don't try this at home).

If everything is staying the same from roll to roll, I would look at developer freshness (perhaps it was almost kaput on the first roll and gave out on the latter), differences in agitation, and what the scenes were on the images. If one roll has a lot of indoor images and the other a lot of outdoor shots, it could be your metering. 250 should be fine for your film, assuming your meter is accurate, so that is something else to confirm. Don't discount the fact that maybe you just got a bad roll of film either. More testing, and confirming all these possible variables, will give you the answer. Some people are not that fond of your developer w/ the film you're using, so maybe experiment w/ different ones for different looks.
Click to expand...

I have Tmax Developer also.... I just recently had grain issues... with Kodak and FreeStyle HC110.... the Kodak 16oz was used within 8m, and I just bought the Freestyle HC110... all the raw chems in kept in a closed solid oak cabinet that is dark when closed.

I use "sunny 16" outside mostly, I do have the "Lightmeter Pro" App for my cell, I will have check the calibration again.

I always make fresh chems each time, one-shot is the way I fly.
 
Not trying to be funny here, but why not give an AF film camera a shot? One of Nikon's matrix AF slrs like an N90S is only about $40 - $60 on ebay, and it has the focus confirmation dot if you want to use your existing lenses.
That way you remove focus and exposure from the equation, and I think you'll find out that you do not have a grain problem.
 
Huss said:
Not trying to be funny here, but why not give an AF film camera a shot? One of Nikon's matrix AF slrs like an N90S is only about $40 - $60 on ebay, and it has the focus confirmation dot if you want to use your existing lenses.
That way you remove focus and exposure from the equation, and I think you'll find out that you do not have a grain problem.
Click to expand...

I have considered that also...AF Confirm is good with manual lenses w/o the chips?
 
x-ray said:
I've found that Freestyle L110 concentrate (HC110) doesn't last long once the bottle is opened. When freshly opened it's very good but after a month or so, unlike Kodakbrand, it oxidized and activity decreases quickly. This woul also explain why you have to expose at EI250 and still get thin shadows. Typically TMax 400 is a full box speed film unlike TX.

Under exposure or over exposure can increase apparent grain. Missed focus can make grain appear more noticeable. I found in the 60's that film is sensitive to heat and increased grain. I think it's less of a problem now due to improved emulsions but just varying rolls of TX in ones pocket for a while caused increased grain. After all your body is 98.6F which is pretty warm. Rapid and extreme changes in chemical temperatures can cause increased grain. In the 70's and earlier films were prone to reticulation but not any longer. I would however try to keep all chemicals and my wash within a couple of degrees. The best practice is to run B&W like you're running color. It may sound extreme but it's served me well for 5 decades and tens of thousands of rolls.

As to longer wet times, yes technically they can cause more grain. I read an article in the 60's that's still valid. Basically gelatin that is the binder for the silver halide on the film becomes soft and somewhat fluid when wet. It doesn't flow like water but it becomes very elastic and soft. Granted prehardening film during manufacture helps this but it's still soft and semi fluid. Anyway silver halide crystals are polar and tend to migrate or clump in this semi fluid environment. The crystals migrate from areas of less density to areas of more density especially when solvents like sodium Sulfite are present. So yes technically the longer in solution, the more opportunity for clumping and increasing of grain. In the 60's and 70's it was more of an issue but today it's less likely you'll see any effect. I still however like to use a hypo clearing bath for a couple of reasons. One it reduces water use, two it removes the last residual fixer and increases perminance, three with TMax it helps remove the antihalation dye and four it reduces wet time and potentially may reduce grain.
Click to expand...

We old timers remember the 1960`s. info gets lost over time
 
DNG said:
I have considered that also...AF Confirm is good with manual lenses w/o the chips?
Click to expand...

Yes. The chips are used for stuff like program or shutter priority modes.

I just attached my Nikkor 50 1.2AIS onto my F100, and the AF confirm dot works.

For the AF Nikons, I think you have to use AI/AIS lenses.
 
Huss said:
Yes. The chips are used for stuff like program or shutter priority modes.

I just attached my Nikkor 50 1.2AIS onto my F100, and the AF confirm dot works.

For the AF Nikons, I think you have to use AI/AIS lenses.
Click to expand...

I prefer rewinding the film to leave the leader out, NO AF NIKON has a custom function to leave the leader out after it's rewound by the motordrive.
F4 most likely....
I have a leader retriever, but I am not very good at it...
I can not load the leader in the dark, I must preload it first, then place it all in a changing bag to finish.

Here is one with a 35mm f/2 Nikkor O N/Ai at f/11 set for 5'-INF on the dof scale, and at 1/250, still shows too much grain to me, The faces seem to be more grainy than I expect.
I don't think I over sharpened.

TMAX 400 @ 250, HC110 H (1:60) with pre-wash and water stop bath wash. (colder than the dev chems)


2017 Classic Street Photography by Peter Arbib: My Classic Street Photography, on Flickr
 
I’m not an expert by any means but it looks like an exposure issue mostly. Another thing I’ve found is that certain lighting conditions, the grain is far more apparent than others even when spot metered for zone 3-4 on the same roll. This was an issue for me and one reason I switched to a 2 bath development to tame the contrast differences within a roll. So, for rolls shot in similar or same contrasts I may develop with a zone system technique, while if I have a roll in for multiple contrasts, it gets 2 bathed or stand developed. Maybe you would have better luck with a cubic grain too. Supposedly more forgiving than t-grain
 
Fp4, Tri x, HP5. Can pretty much cover all your bases that way. That is if you are into the look of the older emulsions. I’ve just had much better luck with them than t-grain. Chris Crawford above has done far more testing and has comparisons of developer/film combos on his site that I’ve found very helpful. Myself
Thornton 2 bath or FX2 stand developer for varying contrast rolls.
Any developer time adjusted for contrast, For same contrast in a roll.
 
Some of your problems could even go back to your scanning. LED light sources in scanners emphasize grain. Most consumer scanners don't hold the film flat so focus in scanning can be a problem.

My opinion, not to be rude so please don't take it that way, your technique has gotten out of whack. You have a lot of variables, focus, exposure, development and process temps that are sometimes deviating from what's recommended by the manufacturer. You need to fall back and start over doing everything to the letter. Focus your camera and don't rely on DOF. Accurate exposure is essential. Forget the sunny 16 and the phone app and get a real meter. I found the phone apps are often way off and in my area the dummy 16 rule is the sunny 11-16 rule and that's not consistent. Dilution of your developer is critical as are temperatures. HC110 is so thick it's easy to miss your dilution especially if you don't get every last drop of developer out of your graduate. It's easy to miss the dilution. I'd have to look up some info but 1:60 might be a touch too dilute fit TMax. You're on the edge of trouble here. You should use a water bath for your chemicals and tank to maintain correct and consistent temp. Start using a hypo clearer which will make it easier to wash at correct temp. Clearing bath cuts wash time to just a few minutes and you can achieve archival wash by filling the tank with correct temp water, agitate and let sit for a few moments dump it and repeat. You can find this info on the internet but it seems 5 cycles is the procedure. Cross check me though. Doing this you can fill a container with 20c water and use from that container rather than the tap.

It very rare to get bad film. I did get 3 bad cases of 8x10 ectachromevback in the 80's but it's very rare.

You need to go back to box ISO and thoroughly test and determine your correct ISO and development times. You have a lot of work ahead of you but your best solution is start using exact manufacturers recommendations, get a real light meter, check your scanner and focus your camera.

Good luck!

By the way things like storing your concentrated chemicals in the dark will have no effect. Just store them in a safe place.
 
Thanks for the advise x-ray, So I checked HC110 H dilution requirements. Apparently, When I changed my working developer amount from 10ml of HC110 for 600ml water, to 5ml of HC110 for 300ml of water to save on my use HC110.
I had forgotten that HC110 needs a minimum of 6ml of syrup in any dilution. So, I have not had enough syrup to start with when I changed my working amount

I do plan to get ANR holders for my V700, I have a good drying workflow that gives me almost negatives, but, the ANR holders will guarantee flatness.

I will try your final wash method with .1gal of filtered water (enough for 5 changes of 500ml for one roll) instead running water, with a clearing bath after the fixer.

If I let my working water I use mixing sit for an hour or so, and them mix my chems, they all will be at room temp. (22c-24c) fine for B&W developers with higher dilutions and still have over 5min develop time. I will need 2gal of working filtered water for this.

I know this is a lot changes at once, So I will need to make another ISO speed test and use the times for 400 per Master Dev Chart App. And have ISO test exposures from ISO 100-1600 in 1/3 stop increments. (100/160/250/320/500/640/800/1200/1600)

I have an overhauled DP-1 with new CDS cells by Sover Wong, (he also overhauled my Nikon F2) I will use that for my meter, though I really like using my DE-1 prism. I plan on getting a hand held though, not sure which one yet... not an old selenium cell though, they age and discolor and lose their ability to create enough current to meter correctly.
 
One thing I discovered in the 60's about high dilution developers when I used Rodinal 1:100, developers at these dilutions oxidize quickly and easily. A developer at this dilution may start to oxidize in an hour even just sitting. You might consider keeping a jug of water in reserve just for your developer mix. Keep it under the sink or somewhere it will stay at room temp then when you're heady to mix it'll be at room temp. Also you're allowing it to outgas any chlorine that's in it.

Sounds like you're on the right track now. You'll get this resolved.
 
x-ray said:
One thing I discovered in the 60's about high dilution developers when I used Rodinal 1:100, developers at these dilutions oxidize quickly and easily. A developer at this dilution may start to oxidize in an hour even just sitting. You might consider keeping a jug of water in reserve just for your developer mix. Keep it under the sink or somewhere it will stay at room temp then when you're heady to mix it'll be at room temp. Also you're allowing it to outgas any chlorine that's in it.

Sounds like you're on the right track now. You'll get this resolved.
Click to expand...

What is that? Purple above

I use my mixed chemicals within 5 minutes of mixing them.

Epson ANR holder made by Epson for the V700/750

s-l1600.jpg
 
Water is chlorinated to kill bacteria. Allowing water to sit in a container will allow much of the chlorine to outgas or come out of solution. Chlorine is very soluble in water and is a very unstable solution just as carbon dioxide in carbonated beverages is unstable. Chlorine like carbon dioxide in soft drinks is added to the water in gas form. Due to their high solubility they readily dissolve in water.

Actually both carbon dioxide and chlorine form an acid when dissolved in water which lowers the PH. Depending on how your city chlorinates the PH of your tap water can vary.

Kodak doesn't recommend using distilled or especially deionized water. Deionizing lowers the ph creating a mild acid. Kodak said that they formulate their chemicals to work best in water of "average" mineral content.

It's possible where you live there may be a higher chlorine content. Water supplies often have adatives like chlorine and sodium fluoride. In home water softners introduce quite a bit of sodium chloride (table salt) also.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

J
  • Article Article
The Amazing Saga of 120 Film: The Last Paper Backed Roll Film
Replies
19
Views
12K
Ambro51
Ambro51
J
  • Article Article
Kodachrome: Gone Forever, Or……? What would it take to bring it back? You don’t want to know!
7 8 9
Replies
170
Views
13K
Bill Clark
Bill Clark
cavcha1
Leica LTM Experiences with a Leica iiig, Tri-x 400, Rodinal Semi-Stand, and the prints to show.
Replies
10
Views
2K
Derek Leath
Derek Leath
wjlapier
Not Again! Another Firsttimer B+W Film Developer...
Replies
18
Views
2K
venchka
venchka
maclaine
Newbie film developing experience. Mistakes and pleasing results
Replies
2
Views
1K
Ranchu
Ranchu
Back
Top Bottom